Upgrading an old c-band analog system

[dneitzel]

I posted this earlier but either it was moved or I don't know where I put it...
Anyway..
I inherited an older c-band, analog system with my new job running a small community cable TV station. I replaced the 4D analog receiver with a newer Traxis so we could download program feeds. However, I have 0 to none experience with satellites and finding those satellites is not convenient the way its set up now. We want to upgrade probably keep the dish. Its a 2 meter solid dish. Maybe keep the motor but I need everything from a drive to a receiver to a C/Ku band LNB.

We use component out for our recordings. We want to reach both C and Ku. Our program providers feed everything in the clear and SD.

Any suggestions for how to rebuild this system including equipment recommendations are highly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[fire1000]

being an newbie myself.just this year i got sad looking at that big dish in my yard. (igot cable sorry guys don't hate me for that) and said hummmm whent on ebay got me a universal c-band ldb on ebay hook up my satwork i got from an ham fest pointed to gax 16 hit blind scan. and wowwwwwwwww fx, seed, neo, geo life, fmc some other cool stuff.
Then i said cool this is way better that old school c-band. I'm still new at this so maybe if you like playing with old school with an new school lnb's and recivers.
then go for it. I bet you be like me and get hook on it so far i get gax 16 gax 17 and some others sat. sat name chage then what i recall. and the guys here put up with my dum but Q's like what is dvbs2 and 4:2:2 but i know now.
and hello there by the way! ha somethime i can't stop talking

 

[dneitzel]

Fire1000:
That might all be true but we still need to get feeds off the satellites. This is not so I can watch NatGeo this is so we can pull down programming from live feeds. So I believe a dish is our only solution at this time.

 

[geekt]

Welcome to the forum.
Your old thread:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/fta-shack/230676-advice-needed-old-c-band-system.html
It has now been closed due to you re-posting it here.

I'm new to FTA myself, but I can help you a LITTLE until someone more knowledgeable on FTA comes along.

Members here can suggest various LNB's that can receiver both Ku and C band that are of high quality. If you use the search function, or read through the reviews section, you can see many of them. Will you need to receiver more than one feed at a time?

As for the motor, or more likely, "actuator", perhaps you can post more info about it? Perhaps a picture or two, or any writing it has on it? Any information about it on paperwork? What do you mean by saying it's not convenient? If it's really old, perhaps it doesn't support the latest methods for finding satellites, however since you are likely trying to receive known feeds from specific satellites that you will be told are going to happen at specific times, perhaps you don't NEED to upgrade it.

So it comes down to the main thing you need, one or more high quality receivers with component out made for professional feed reception.

Edit: What are your requirements for said receiver/s?

One final question, what did you mean by a "drive"? Did you mean a hard drive for recording? A manual motor control?

 

[goobenet]

There's no easy answer to this since your question is vague. What exactly are you looking to find up in them thar skies?

The dish.
Do you know the approximate age of the dish? Is the dish still in good shape? (not warped, clean, scaler ring still in place? Support struts all intact and not bent?) Do you have a model number for the dish? It'd help to know if it's a 4-degree or a 3-degree dish. 4-degree dishes are a PITA to aim because they'll pick up cross-talk from the other sats. (satellites in the sky are 3-degrees separated usually. Some are even stacked in the same orbital location)

You'll need a PLL LNB (not DRO!) and a decent Ku LNB. 2m isn't huge, so don't expect amazing signal strengths but you should be able to pull in the stronger birds.

The actuator should be probably one of the easier things, maybe. Can you post some pictures of the current actuator and how it's attached to the dish?

The Receiver.
This is the absolute question, isn't it? Budget for a few different ones and an actuator controller. People seem to like the AzBox if you know what you're hunting (no blind scan IIRC) or pick up one of the USB/PCI sat cards for a computer. This should make things both easier (in terms of picking things up) and harder (learning curve for the software is a little obscene). Since you're in a broadcast situation, you should seriously contemplate an active RF splitter and feed a handful of receivers. Some do better with Ku channels and others are better with C band stuff. I use a Quintech 1x8 "zero-loss" splitter.

As for finding programming, look to THE List here and just browse around and see if anything turns your crank. Sometimes, especially in broadcast/cable, if you find a channel you want to carry, the actuator becomes pretty useless since the satellite will NEVER move for obvious reasons. Then you're limited to that single bird, but there might be 4-6 programs you'll find you want to carry on that same bird, thus more receivers will be needed.

As for your community cable station, why does the receiver need to have the DVR? Do you not have any station automation/centralized recording systems? Automating playback out of these FTA boxes will quickly become an excersise in futility without having human interaction EVERY time you want to play something.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[dneitzel]

Thanks geekt-
I will get photos of the actuator tomorrow. Its inconvenient because the only thing I have to position the dish is the old 4d receiver. The Traxis doesn't move the dish. So we move it into place by using the 4D then blind scan it with the Traxis. I have the LNB feeds split so they go to both receivers. Probably not the best concept in the world but so far..it works. I often find that the position that gives us the strongest analog signal is not the strongest digital position and the dish has to be moved one way or the other a bit. So I'd certainly like to fix these issues.

Sorry..by "drive" I meant actuator/positioner. We record the programs digitally on a separate system after more processing. I don't require a receiver with a hard drive.

I also have trouble with the LNBs. There are two in the present set-up. One for Ku and one for C. The 4D receiver has an input for each band but the Traxis just has one input. I tried combining them with limited success. I find I get better results during the blind scans if the signals are kept separate so I generally switch the cables and do separate Ku and C scans.

I figure I might as well go modern and get a single LNB which the newer receivers understand.

I'll post some pics tomorrow.

Thanks

 

[dneitzel]

goobenet-

Sorry...my mistake with the language..Don't need a drive..Yes.. we record elsewhere in the system and do not intend to record at the receiver. I like your idea of multiple receivers. That makes good sense to me.

The feeds we look for hop around depending on the programmers budget and available transponders. For instance I have a feed this Wednesday at 10a Pacific of a live program from North Cascades Nat'l Park about Climate Change. Its being delivered both C and Ku. The Ku is on AMC21 Transponder 20 and the C feed is on some other sat (I don't have the details with me right now). We only have one shot to grab these shows so we need something dependable.

Of course we don't have a big budget so I'm looking to do this upgrade at reasonable cost but added dependability.

I'll post pics tomorrow.

Thanks

 

[geekt]

It sounds like you might have a problem with your current setup.
You might want to read through the FAQ section:
FTA / MPEG2 FAQ's - SatelliteGuys.US
Particularly the thread on switches:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/fta-mpeg2-faqs/134124-switch-setups-simplified.html
I've read through it multiple times, and it's VERY useful.

As for feeds, you probably don't want to mention where they are in the open forum.

Personally, if I were in your position, I would get a stand alone positioner, and then run it into whatever receiver you choose. (re-reading this, no pun was intended ) I would go to the satellite I was set to receiver the feed from, and manually enter the feed, then tune the position as much as possible. If it didn't exist yet, I would tune it with a similar feed/channel.I wouldn't blind scan at all even, unless there were no feeds any time soon, and I was just curious. I would NOT choose one of the boxes marketed towards end users, such as the AZBox, or others. I would be afraid someone would touch something, and a display would pop up on the feed. I believe some receivers marketed towards professionals even lock out access after a few minutes without a password. Some of the more advanced users who actually sell equipment or have experience with exactly what you are talking about are more likely to be able to help you than the majority of responders.

 

[sergei]

If you don't have one already then I'd invest in a good meter to help in finding and adjusting the dish.

 

[dneitzel]

Thanks Geekt:

Although a professional, broadcast level receiver is a great idea the ones I've seen cost thousands of $ and are beyond our means. So we aim to do this with consumer equipment for the time being. We don't have to worry about folks touching the equipment during feeds. This is a "small" facility and there won't be a lot of folks working at the studio.

The feeds that I mention are not intended to be kept secret. The public is invited to tune in.

Sergi:
A meter ..if I have a positioner and a receiver why do I also need a meter. Just shows you how littlw I know but I thought a meter was for setting up a dish not operation of it.

 

[DRCars]

Thanks geekt-
...snip...
I often find that the position that gives us the strongest analog signal is not the strongest digital position and the dish has to be moved one way or the other a bit. So I'd certainly like to fix these issues.
...snip...

What you are describing is probably adjacent satellite interference. The only fix for this would be a bigger dish that is 2 degree or better compliant. About an 8 ft. dish is the smallest that is 2 degree (spacing of satellites) compliant. You will just have to live with that on a 6 ft. dish.

If the system has a feedhorn/polarizer with adjustable skew you may also find it necessary to use the 4DTV to adjust the skew of the polarizer for optimum signal quality at times due to adjacent satellite interference.

DRCars

 

[dneitzel]

DR Cars:

Okay..that makes sense, even to my limited understanding. I am assuming that once I get a new positioner which is not dependent on the analog signal strength I'll be able to get closer to the actual digital hot spot. Do you think that's correct? I hate to have to replace the dish since its the most expensive part of the system.

 

[sergei]

A meter ..if I have a positioner and a receiver why do I also need a meter. Just shows you how littlw I know but I thought a meter was for setting up a dish not operation of it.

Every Dish will sooner or later need some adjusting for the best signal and by having a good digital meter which could cost you between 200 and 500 dollars you can peak the dish and not have to have a receiver and TV next to the dish.

 

[rv1pop]

Welcome to SatelliteGuys.. I do not have any idea where you are, nor what type of programing you wish to get. If this is a community cable system and you want to Christian newtorks, contact TBN and ask for the department that handles getting the feeds to cable systems. Right now my mind is blank as to the name of the person, however, the same department that did handle that is doing the "Second Chance" system for the prison cable networks. They can help with the equi[pment and installs. I am rather sure they can help you with TBN, Church Channel, Smile of a Child, JCTV and Enlace'. If you business licenses are all in order (they are 501c3, so how they help is regulated).

Also a call or PM to Satellite AV, one of OUR Gold sponsors may get you some more answers - as in Glorystar - see that forum Glorystar Support Forum - SatelliteGuys.US. I hope this gives you some answers

 

[dneitzel]

RV1Pop-
Not a Christian station but I certainly appreciate the effort. Thanks..

 

[dneitzel]

Sergei-
I see what you mean..Thanks for the explanation.

 

[dneitzel]

I have the photos but I have to wait til this evening to post them. Probably after 10pm Pacific.
I see that the LNB is a Chapperal..I can see patent numbers but no model number. The motor is a Venture and if M on the paper sticker means model # its a 7/00 or possibly 7100. I can see that the first thing I need to do is power wash the dish. Its got moss and lichens growing on it.

By the way..one of the things that is very annoying about the Traxis is that it jams up and gives an error message after a lot of scanning. I have seen other folks on this site report the same problem. The only way out of the error message is to reset the defaults which erases all the saved channels...bummer!

 

[dneitzel]

BTW:
The system is from about 1996. It came from a TCI Cable head end and was moved to its present location and turned over to the community about 2000.

 

[dneitzel]

The pics of the system are here:
BTV10 Sat Dish
and to my surprise after breaking out the measuring tape, its not a 2meter dish its a 3meter dish..

Thanks for all your suggestions and direction I really appreciate the help...

 

[geekt]

LOL! That's a big difference!