Washington State Attorney General Investigating Sirius/XM Business Practices

jpmarto

SatelliteGuys Pro
Original poster
Pub Member / Supporter
Aug 26, 2007
478
126
E. of Seattle
Sounds like a huge problem to me.. 20+ million subscribers, 78 complaints filed over 3 years. Not exactly a significant number indicating a rampant problem. I've actually tried to cancel a little-used second radio several times too.. They don't let me. They offer me 5 months for $20 on both my radios and I take it. I've done that I think 4 times now. And the people who claim they can't cancel a sub after a free trial from a new car are flat out lying. On a new car trial, they don't even take a billing method (I know because I've done it). So if you don't want it after the trial, you just do nothing and it deactivates, then they keep sending you 'please come back' offers.

I don't see a problem here. Just people who overreact or don't know how to use a telephone.
 
Sounds like a huge problem to me.. 20+ million subscribers, 78 complaints filed over 3 years. Not exactly a significant number indicating a rampant problem. I've actually tried to cancel a little-used second radio several times too.. They don't let me. They offer me 5 months for $20 on both my radios and I take it. I've done that I think 4 times now. And the people who claim they can't cancel a sub after a free trial from a new car are flat out lying. On a new car trial, they don't even take a billing method (I know because I've done it). So if you don't want it after the trial, you just do nothing and it deactivates, then they keep sending you 'please come back' offers.

I don't see a problem here. Just people who overreact or don't know how to use a telephone.

Perhaps you should learn to read and maybe, just maybe, comprehend what you read when you do???? Ya think?

The 78 people mentioned are from Washington, which does NOT have 20 million people (more like 6.5 million), in total, there, much less subscribing to XM/Sirius. BTW, the 78 and 121 do not claim to be all inclusive totals for the state, either, they are the ones that have actually filed complaints with the state AG's Office.

Sirius/XM's complaints with the BBB put them in a C category with thousands of complaints lodged against them. Not as bad as D*, but still not particularly good.
 
This happens A LOT. Sirius/XM has one of the WORST customer service departments out there.

A contacted my states AG's office when I subscribed to a Lifetime subscription then they changed and told me I must pay for the online streaming, I told them I purchased my lifetime subscription which included the online streaming way before they started charging extra for it and had to fight them on it.

I ended up winning because Sirius did not have a legal leg to stand on... once I got the AG involved they just caved in to shut me up.
 
Perhaps you should learn to read and maybe, just maybe, comprehend what you read when you do???? Ya think?

The 78 people mentioned are from Washington, which does NOT have 20 million people (more like 6.5 million), in total, there, much less subscribing to XM/Sirius. BTW, the 78 and 121 do not claim to be all inclusive totals for the state, either, they are the ones that have actually filed complaints with the state AG's Office.

Sirius/XM's complaints with the BBB put them in a C category with thousands of complaints lodged against them. Not as bad as D*, but still not particularly good.

Fair enough, lets then do an average. Why don't we say a very high extrapolation of 400 complaints per state. That's 20,000 complaints (BBB shows just over 4,000 total). 0.1% of their subscriber base. Still a very insignificant percentage. They could claim 99.9% customer satisfaction.

And we've already been over what a joke BBB ratings are, and that they can be bought and have absolutely no reflection of the actual business.

And speaking of reading and comprehension, I notice you had nothing to say about the complaints of people who claim they can't cancel after a new car trial period. Could it be because they are LYING? Because during a trial they do not take a credit card number?? ZOMG! Oh, and since you asked, I made the telephone comment because all these people have to do if they can't seem to figure out how to cancel is call the bank or credit card company and block them from charging any more. Takes about 5 minutes on the phone with the bank. Collections? Takes 2 minutes to write out a dispute and mail it back. It's called being an 'educated consumer'.
 
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I have cancelled a few radios, and its a pain in the ass to cancel them because they will do just about anything to stop you from leaving, including winback offers that you simply cannot refuse.

Vonage does the same dam thing, they transfer you several times, put you on hold forever. I had to cancel some lines with them and I finally just gave up, cancelled the credit card and let them shut off the service for non-payment.

Its pretty dam sad that you have to literally cancel your credit card with some companies and stop paying them to get your service cancelled.

The thing that Sucks about Vonage and XM is that unlike Dish and Directv and give you 60 day, Vonage and XM will keep you active for up to 4 months before they will cut you off for non-payment.
 
Fair enough, lets then do an average. Why don't we say a very high extrapolation of 400 complaints per state. That's 20,000 complaints (BBB shows just over 4,000 total). 0.1% of their subscriber base. Still a very insignificant percentage. They could claim 99.9% customer satisfaction.

You have to be kidding, extrapolate complaints? That is quite a reach and I cannot think of anyone who would be willing to do that, except marketing types, who make their livings from skirting the truth, at any and all costs.

And we've already been over what a joke BBB ratings are, and that they can be bought and have absolutely no reflection of the actual business.

However, neither company pays the dues to get a good rating and based on that, would have to say that in this case, the ratings may actually be of some use for comparative value.

And speaking of reading and comprehension, I notice you had nothing to say about the complaints of people who claim they can't cancel after a new car trial period. Could it be because they are LYING? Because during a trial they do not take a credit card number?? ZOMG! Oh, and since you asked, I made the telephone comment because all these people have to do if they can't seem to figure out how to cancel is call the bank or credit card company and block them from charging any more. Takes about 5 minutes on the phone with the bank. Collections? Takes 2 minutes to write out a dispute and mail it back. It's called being an 'educated consumer'.

Did I misrepresent what was said in the article about that? How do you know those people are lying? Did you use your ESP on them and read their minds and find out that they are all lying? (As an aside, where do you buy your tin foil for your hats that you apparently wear?)

As to your suggestion that the people simply call the bank or credit card company and block them from posting any more charges, go to Fatwallet or CreditBoards and tell people on there that you know how to do that. They always enjoy a good laugh on the Finance boards and know that there is no practical way to do that. The credit card companies either cannot or will not do that and if you have ever disputed a charge to your card, you would know that its not quite as simple as you make it out to be. AMEX is the only one I know of that makes it fairly easy to dispute charges, but, according to the CSR the last time I talked to one, they also have no way to block charges from a specific company, you have to file dispute and get a charge-back to get rid of the charge from your account. What credit card company have you done this with? Please let me know, I would like one to use via the Internet that is easier to use than my account with BofA that creates different card numbers for each transaction so that if I order from a business that decides to start charging me more each time, I can simply call them and tell them to stop all charges from there. Can't cite one, can you? :)

It sounds to me that XM/S is using the old AOL business model, where you make it as hard as possible for people to cancel their accounts, keep on charging them, and hope they will pay it, even if they don't want your service. Worked for a while for AOL, but eventually it caught up with them and they are pretty much gone now. With the financial / liquidity problems that XM/S seems to have, I am betting that they will be shuttered before this all shakes out for them. That is the truly bad thing about dealing with the state's AGs, it takes them so long to act on a company that is using less than honest practices.

What is your relationship with XM/S? You are rep or work for one of their sales companies (i.e. BestBuy, etc.)?
 
I have cancelled a few radios, and its a pain in the ass to cancel them because they will do just about anything to stop you from leaving, including winback offers that you simply cannot refuse.

Vonage does the same dam thing, they transfer you several times, put you on hold forever. I had to cancel some lines with them and I finally just gave up, cancelled the credit card and let them shut off the service for non-payment.

Its pretty dam sad that you have to literally cancel your credit card with some companies and stop paying them to get your service cancelled.

The thing that Sucks about Vonage and XM is that unlike Dish and Directv and give you 60 day, Vonage and XM will keep you active for up to 4 months before they will cut you off for non-payment.

No you don't need to cancel the card. JerseyMatt is going to tell his the secret way he knows that you can just have the credit card company block all the charges from them in the future. :D
 
Guys, remember what they say about arguing on the Internet.

But seriously I wouldn't worry about a state AG "investigating" big corporations, they do it all the time especially in and election year.
 
"But seriously I wouldn't worry about a state AG "investigating" big corporations, they do it all the time especially in and election year."

Ya know, DirecTV didn't worry too much about being sued either.

Washington Attorney General sues DIRECTV for

"Washington Attorney General sues DIRECTV for “unconscionable” sales practices
Hundreds of consumers burned by big fees and terms buried in itsy-bitsy fine print

SEATTLE – DIRECTV has generated more consumer complaints to the Washington Attorney General’s Office than any other business in 2009. Those complaints from Washington residents signal a serious problem, said Attorney General Rob McKenna, who today announced the office is suing the nation’s largest satellite television company for unfair sales practices."

Mr. McKenna is a good man and takes his job as State AG very seriously. Sirius/XM and "other" Satellite companies should pay attention.
 
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But seriously I wouldn't worry about a state AG "investigating" big corporations, they do it all the time especially in and election year.

How about the fines that the states impose on the companies that they follow up on? The KY AG's office has an excellent track-record of getting pretty massive fines against companies for violations of the consumer protection laws all the time (of course, they have some of the strictest CP laws outside of CA). Sirius/XM isn't the kind of company, in that they are not exactly the epitome of sound financial strength, that can afford to wage a protracted court case and a resulting fine. Don't know what the track record is in WA, but its not exactly what you call good PR in any case. Also, if this is happening in WA, you can bet it is going on elsewhere and sooner or later other states will follow suit and at least cost them plenty in legal fees (see Dish Network for example of company who spends like crazy on legal fees. :) )
 
What annoys me is that you can sign up online to there service but you can't cancel online. I hate having to call and speak with some idiot half way around the world to cancel something.

That is a ploy used by loads of companies now (E*, D*, etc.) Its a way to hopefully frustrate you enough that you will keep paying for a service you no longer wish to have.
 
What annoys me is that you can sign up online to there service but you can't cancel online. I hate having to call and speak with some idiot half way around the world to cancel something.

XM's call centers are terrible for ANYTHING you need.
IF you manage to get ahold of someone and get your issue resolved, you then have to go thru the barrage of , Do you want this new radio, or this one or we have a great radio for you .... I tell them constantly that my radios are fine, no need to replace them.
 
I just got off with XM to cancel the subscription for my old A/V Receiver the lady who didn’t speak English too well tried to get me to suspend the radio but I was firm about canceling. She asked me why and I made some stuff up. I didn’t feel like explaining the radio I want to cancel is a XM Mini Tuner and I’ll be adding a Sirius subscription in a few days when my Home Connect Kit arrives for my new A/V Receiver.
 
One down, next!: ("feeling lucky" Sirius/XM?)[FONT=&quot]

DIRECTV offering refunds amid accusations of unfair practices [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nation's largest satellite TV service changing how it does Business[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]By Herb Weisbaum ConsumerMan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]msnbc.com contributor msnbc.com contributor [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]updated 39 minutes ago 2010-12-30T17:45:35 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many Happy Returns. Thousands of unhappy satellite TV customers around the country will get refunds in the New Year, courtesy of DIRECTV, the nation’s largest satellite TV service. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV also promises to change the way it does business. It took a lot of prodding for this to happen: A DIRECTV lawsuit filed by Washington State and a multi-state investigation led by the Attorney General in Tennessee. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Two weeks ago, DIRECTV settled allegations (made by all 50 states and the District of Columbia) that since 2007 it used “deceptive and unfair” marketing practices. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“At a time when people are trying to cut back on expenses, it is important that businesses clearly explain the terms of their service contracts,” said Tennessee Attorney General Robert Cooper in a statement. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV holds the dubious honor of having more consumer complaints (about 2,000) filed with the Washington State Attorney General’s office than any other company between 2006 and 2010. In its lawsuit, the state accused DIRECTV of “unconscionable” sales practices. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“We believe that acting in ways that we found to be unfair and deceptive was part of their business model,” Washington AG Rob McKenna tells me. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]His lawsuit claimed pricing information “was not adequately disclosed” in the company’s ads or by its telephone sales representatives. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example, DIRECTV would advertise a monthly price of just $29.99, but didn't always make it clear that this low price was based on a rebate. Also, while the deal required a 2-year contract, the promotional price was good for only 12 months, something else that was often hidden in the fine print. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“We had people complaining that they’d get bills for $50, $60 or $70 when they thought they were only going to be charged $29.99,” says Paula Selis, Washington State’s senior assistant attorney general, who handled the case. “And the company was pretty unwilling to work with people to straighten that out.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Major allegations
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here are some of the major allegations of unlawful behavior listed in court papers. [/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]DIRECTV did not clearly disclose the true cost of the service and that the initial contract was for two years.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]It did not make it clear that a sizeable early termination fee would be charged if the service was canceled before the two-year period ended.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]It extended customers’ contracts without authorization when defective equipment was replaced. Misrepresented the availability of sports programming and did not clearly disclose that seasonal sports packages would automatically renew unless canceled.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]It advertised “free” HD or DVR equipment, but charged $6 to $8 a month for this “upgraded” service. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]New way of doing business
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV has promised the courts it will change its business practices – institute new procedures and stop some previous practices – to ensure potential customers are well-informed about the terms of service and any promotional price or offer. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In an email to msnbc.com, company spokesperson Darris Gringeri downplayed the significance of these settlements. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“The fact is, we were implementing the majority of these improvements long before the AGs even brought this to our attention,” she writes. “When our customers let us know there are issues, we decide on our own to fix them, we don’t wait for the AGs to come to us. So while some AGs are grandstanding, we’d rather focus on the customer and move forward with giving them the best service possible.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]While DIRECTV did not admit any wrongdoing, under the settlements it is legally bound to do a number of things. From now on, material terms such as the cost of service, contract length and cancelation penalties must be clearly disclosed next to the price in every advertisement [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV’s ads are also required to clearly disclose whether a rebate is required to get the promotional price. If the first bill does not reflect the price agreed at the time of sale, DIRECTV must adjust the price or cancel the contract, if requested, without any penalty. If the price difference is because the customer did not properly apply for the rebate, DIRECTV must help with that. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But the agreement covers much more than advertising. From now on DIRECTV: [/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Will not charge a cancelation fee if a customer ends services because of a recurring problem that cannot be fixed.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Cannot require a customer to enter into a new or extended contract when simply repairing or replacing defective equipment. A customer must knowingly agree to any contracts extension.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Will disclose any limitations to the availability of sports programming or local channels.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Give customers 30 days notice before any seasonal sports package is automatically renewed. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ad-itude adjustment [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECT TV says it is already adjusting its ads to give more prominent placement to specific details on offers. This includes placing phrases in direct proximity to the offer such as “after rebate,” “with 24 month agreement” and “fees apply” when applicable. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Millions could be refunded to unhappy customers [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The settlement is good news for Jessica Twardzik of Seattle, who filed a complaint with the Washington State Attorney General’s office. She tells me she switched from cable to DIRECTV because their advertised prices were better. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But after the satellite dish was installed, the signal kept going out and the repair people who came to her house could not fix the problem. After six weeks of intermittent TV service, she called the company to cancel. Twardzik says she was never told she had agreed to a two-year contract and that she would be hit with a whopping cancelation fee of $458. She refused to pay and was sent to collection. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“It was the worst customer service I ever received in my life,” Twardzik says, “and I’ve worked in customer service my whole life.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV has agreed to resolve complaints already filed about problems that took place after January 1, 2007. Unhappy customers are eligible for a refund or other relief. Those who have not formally complained have until June 9, 2011 to do so with their state attorney general or consumer protection office. For Washington state residents the deadline is May 31, 2011. If the company cannot resolve the complaint, the consumer can take their case to a claims administrator who will issue a decision. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]© 2010 msnbc.com.[/FONT]
 
Last edited:
One down, next!: ("feeling lucky" Sirius/XM?)[FONT=&quot]

DIRECTV offering refunds amid accusations of unfair practices [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nation's largest satellite TV service changing how it does Business[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]By Herb Weisbaum ConsumerMan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]msnbc.com contributor msnbc.com contributor [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]updated 39 minutes ago 2010-12-30T17:45:35 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many Happy Returns. Thousands of unhappy satellite TV customers around the country will get refunds in the New Year, courtesy of DIRECTV, the nation’s largest satellite TV service. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV also promises to change the way it does business. It took a lot of prodding for this to happen: A DIRECTV lawsuit filed by Washington State and a multi-state investigation led by the Attorney General in Tennessee. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Two weeks ago, DIRECTV settled allegations (made by all 50 states and the District of Columbia) that since 2007 it used “deceptive and unfair” marketing practices. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“At a time when people are trying to cut back on expenses, it is important that businesses clearly explain the terms of their service contracts,” said Tennessee Attorney General Robert Cooper in a statement. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV holds the dubious honor of having more consumer complaints (about 2,000) filed with the Washington State Attorney General’s office than any other company between 2006 and 2010. In its lawsuit, the state accused DIRECTV of “unconscionable” sales practices. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“We believe that acting in ways that we found to be unfair and deceptive was part of their business model,” Washington AG Rob McKenna tells me. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]His lawsuit claimed pricing information “was not adequately disclosed” in the company’s ads or by its telephone sales representatives. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example, DIRECTV would advertise a monthly price of just $29.99, but didn't always make it clear that this low price was based on a rebate. Also, while the deal required a 2-year contract, the promotional price was good for only 12 months, something else that was often hidden in the fine print. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“We had people complaining that they’d get bills for $50, $60 or $70 when they thought they were only going to be charged $29.99,” says Paula Selis, Washington State’s senior assistant attorney general, who handled the case. “And the company was pretty unwilling to work with people to straighten that out.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Major allegations
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Here are some of the major allegations of unlawful behavior listed in court papers. [/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]DIRECTV did not clearly disclose the true cost of the service and that the initial contract was for two years.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]It did not make it clear that a sizeable early termination fee would be charged if the service was canceled before the two-year period ended.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]It extended customers’ contracts without authorization when defective equipment was replaced. Misrepresented the availability of sports programming and did not clearly disclose that seasonal sports packages would automatically renew unless canceled.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]It advertised “free” HD or DVR equipment, but charged $6 to $8 a month for this “upgraded” service. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]New way of doing business
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV has promised the courts it will change its business practices – institute new procedures and stop some previous practices – to ensure potential customers are well-informed about the terms of service and any promotional price or offer. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In an email to msnbc.com, company spokesperson Darris Gringeri downplayed the significance of these settlements. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“The fact is, we were implementing the majority of these improvements long before the AGs even brought this to our attention,” she writes. “When our customers let us know there are issues, we decide on our own to fix them, we don’t wait for the AGs to come to us. So while some AGs are grandstanding, we’d rather focus on the customer and move forward with giving them the best service possible.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]While DIRECTV did not admit any wrongdoing, under the settlements it is legally bound to do a number of things. From now on, material terms such as the cost of service, contract length and cancelation penalties must be clearly disclosed next to the price in every advertisement [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV’s ads are also required to clearly disclose whether a rebate is required to get the promotional price. If the first bill does not reflect the price agreed at the time of sale, DIRECTV must adjust the price or cancel the contract, if requested, without any penalty. If the price difference is because the customer did not properly apply for the rebate, DIRECTV must help with that. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But the agreement covers much more than advertising. From now on DIRECTV: [/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Will not charge a cancelation fee if a customer ends services because of a recurring problem that cannot be fixed.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Cannot require a customer to enter into a new or extended contract when simply repairing or replacing defective equipment. A customer must knowingly agree to any contracts extension.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Will disclose any limitations to the availability of sports programming or local channels.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Give customers 30 days notice before any seasonal sports package is automatically renewed. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ad-itude adjustment [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECT TV says it is already adjusting its ads to give more prominent placement to specific details on offers. This includes placing phrases in direct proximity to the offer such as “after rebate,” “with 24 month agreement” and “fees apply” when applicable. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Millions could be refunded to unhappy customers [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The settlement is good news for Jessica Twardzik of Seattle, who filed a complaint with the Washington State Attorney General’s office. She tells me she switched from cable to DIRECTV because their advertised prices were better. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But after the satellite dish was installed, the signal kept going out and the repair people who came to her house could not fix the problem. After six weeks of intermittent TV service, she called the company to cancel. Twardzik says she was never told she had agreed to a two-year contract and that she would be hit with a whopping cancelation fee of $458. She refused to pay and was sent to collection. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“It was the worst customer service I ever received in my life,” Twardzik says, “and I’ve worked in customer service my whole life.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]DIRECTV has agreed to resolve complaints already filed about problems that took place after January 1, 2007. Unhappy customers are eligible for a refund or other relief. Those who have not formally complained have until June 9, 2011 to do so with their state attorney general or consumer protection office. For Washington state residents the deadline is May 31, 2011. If the company cannot resolve the complaint, the consumer can take their case to a claims administrator who will issue a decision. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]© 2010 msnbc.com.[/FONT]

Has this been posted in the D* forum ?
 
If it hasn't that is certainly where it belongs.....

My originating post was about Washington State AG investigating Sirius/XM. The purpose of this prior detailed post was to follow up and show that this AG is serious, and Sirius/XM should expect to receive the same level of attention as did DirectTV. It seemed a reasonable place to post to me, sorry if you disagree.
 

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