HOA Issues FTA OTARD Single Family Home

[homeyg]

I have a question: I just bought a single family home in a deeded gated community with an HOA. I researched the satellite OTARD docs *prior to buying* and would like to confirm that I understand what I am reading...

Am I clear to use a 39.73" (max limit per FCC rules) FTA dish in this community with CCR's (HOA rules) that dictate the max size limit of 18". Based on what I am reading (my interpretation):

1. I am clear and safe according to the FCC's OTARD rules.
2. I can place the dish anywhere neccessary to receive signal without interferance.

Comments?

I did communicate (in a very nice way) my intentions (will be installed at ground level facing south--I'm in SW FL--with cute flowers around it), submitted the FCC's OTARD docs, *and* indicated that the FCC overrules the HOA laws regarding OTARD policies. His response below...

This is copied directly from your document:

What Types of Properties Are Covered?
Under the OTARD rules, an owner or a tenant has the right to install an antenna (that meets size limitations) on property that he owns or over which he has exclusive use or control. This includes single family homes, condominiums, cooperatives, town homes, and manufactured homes. In the case of condominiums, cooperatives, and rental properties, the rules apply to “exclusive use” areas, like terraces, balconies, or patios.” Exclusive use” refers to an area of the property that only the renter and people allowed by the renter may enter and use. If the area is shared with others or accessible without the renter’s permission, it is not considered to be an exclusive use area.

Unfortunately in a deed restricted community you do not have exclusive control. You must be approved by the Architectural review committee and the board of directors. The board decided at the last meeting to not create a new standard by allowing anything larger than our documents allow. Not to say that in the future this won’t change but as of now your dish will not be approved. Not trying to be combative, but you must understand that once something is voted in it then becomes “The Law”. At this time the board has decided against changing the law permanently. Sorry for the inconvenience.


I have a good friend of mine who is a "high profile" lawyer and am waiting for his response.

Your suggestions/comments will be appreciated.

 

[Mr Tony]

Am I clear to use a 39.73" (max limit per FCC rules) FTA dish in this community with CCR's (HOA rules) that dictate the max size limit of 18". Based on what I am reading (my interpretation):

1. I am clear and safe according to the FCC's OTARD rules.
2. I can place the dish anywhere neccessary to receive signal without interferance.

Comments?

Their limit size (the HOA) was written long before Dish & Direct got larger dishes. The newer ones are 23x28 approx. but to the questions

1. yes
2. grey area....they can restrict where its put but in good faith. I'll use my house as an example. They don't want the dish on the "driveway" side of the townhouses unless necessary...in 99% of the cases this is a no issue where I live

Now if at location A which may be backside of house away from everyone if you can get on a motorized from 72-129 but at location B which is in front of the house where everyone can see it you can get some of the Atlantic satellites its a judgement call. If you are from Cuba and need Cubavision which is on those Atlantic sats, then there may be an issue. But if you just want to maybe see them, I would move for option A.

I did communicate (in a very nice way) my intentions (will be installed at ground level facing south--I'm in SW FL--with cute flowers around it), submitted the FCC's OTARD docs, *and* indicated that the FCC overrules the HOA laws regarding OTARD policies. His response below...

This is copied directly from your document:

What Types of Properties Are Covered?
Under the OTARD rules, an owner or a tenant has the right to install an antenna (that meets size limitations) on property that he owns or over which he has exclusive use or control. This includes single family homes, condominiums, cooperatives, town homes, and manufactured homes. In the case of condominiums, cooperatives, and rental properties, the rules apply to “exclusive use” areas, like terraces, balconies, or patios.” Exclusive use” refers to an area of the property that only the renter and people allowed by the renter may enter and use. If the area is shared with others or accessible without the renter’s permission, it is not considered to be an exclusive use area.

Unfortunately in a deed restricted community you do not have exclusive control. You must be approved by the Architectural review committee and the board of directors. The board decided at the last meeting to not create a new standard by allowing anything larger than our documents allow. Not to say that in the future this won’t change but as of now your dish will not be approved. Not trying to be combative, but you must understand that once something is voted in it then becomes “The Law”. At this time the board has decided against changing the law permanently. Sorry for the inconvenience.


I have a good friend of mine who is a "high profile" lawyer and am waiting for his response.

Your suggestions/comments will be appreciated.

Here is the info on townhomes

Q: I live in a townhome community. Am I covered by the FCC rule?

A: Yes. If you own the whole townhouse, including the walls and the roof and the land under the building, then the rule applies just as it does for a single family home, and you may be able to put the antenna on the roof, the exterior wall, the backyard or any other place that is part of what you own. If the townhouse is a condominium, then the rule applies as it does for any other type of condominium, which means it applies only where you have an exclusive use area. If it is a condominium townhouse, you probably cannot use the roof, the chimney, or the exterior walls unless the condominium association gives you permission. You may want to check your ownership documents to determine what areas are owned by you or are reserved for your exclusive use.

since you are in a single family home, you have exclusive area to everything I assume (this includes the yard)? If so, their "law" is wrong. Technically right now anyone getting Dish or Direct according to them is breaking the law because the D & E dishes are larger than 18". Also convenient that they approved this "last month" when nobody has had 18" dishes for a few years

Technically you have the right to put it up as long as (since you mentioned pole mount) that you have EXCLUSIVE right to the yard.

 

[JosephB]

He is misconstruing the term exclusive use/control. Exclusive control does not mean "not covered by HOA covenants", it means a private area like your back yard, and area that is not shared with any other residents. Non-exclusive areas in terms of OTARD refer to areas such as breezeways, front yards, etc. at apartment complexes where they are shared with other residents. Under OTARD you can put up a 1M dish on your own private property period.

 

[Mr Tony]

exactly.

 

[turbosat]

Dig a hole!

They may have 'voted it in' but that does NOT make it LAW, just their rule.
Let your attorney advise you. And let us know what happens!! Good luck,,I think you'll be fine with it.

 

[meinename]

Heck, Dish 500's break that 18" rule alone since they are 22"H x 20"W

Put your "under one meter" dish out of sight in the back yard, and I would think you can tell them to go away.

All in all, let your lawyer do the talking.
He should recognize that the HOA response is a crock, as far what you've told us.

 

[gillham]

The FCC rule is clear that it overrides any contract you may have with the HOA. You could have signed it in blood, but the FCC rules override the contractual obligations.

Sure, you *agreed* to restrict yourself to 18" dishes, but it doesn't matter, it is overridden by the FCC rules.

You might need a lawyer for this "exclusive use" crap the HOA is spouting. If they do not believe your single family home is for your exclusive use, they should start paying maintenance, property taxes and mowing the lawn.

If there is a sidewalk out front I would say it is not exclusive use even if your property deed might include that area, but beyond any city easement I don't see how any HOA could argue your single family home and the lot it sits on is not for your exclusive use. Allowing you to install a 1 meter or less dish within your lot in an HOA is one of the main reasons for OTARD rules.

You do need to make sure your antenna is 1 meter or less on the longest dimension. A dish like the Fortec Star 100CM that is 39.9" on the short side and 43" on the long side will exceed the 1 meter physical dimension even though it is considered a "1 meter" dish. You don't want the HOA person out measuring the dish itself and finding it is > 1 meter in any direction.

 

[Mr Tony]

exactly gillham....If you dont have the dish yet you might want to go with a 36" instead

 

[primestar31]

exactly gillham....If you dont have the dish yet you might want to go with a 36" instead

Spray-paint a large 18" on the front-center of the larger dish, before you install it, and see how long it takes your HOA to figure it out!

 

[homeyg]

Hello everyone! Thanks for the replies…this forum and site has been fantastic and I will find myself searching the database for interesting topics and advice! I’m hoping my experience with the HOA, FCC, and single family home will help others.

Here's the latest:

I sent a detailed email to the Board (in regards to the above email from the President) regarding exclusive use and dishes and my intentions regarding landscaping of the dish, (heck it will be less that 39” off the ground since it will be angled to face the sky). I also indicated that I want to work with them, and not against them (trying to enter the community on a good note), but have not received anything. Dead silence. I'm guessing that they are consulting with the PMC and their atty. Gillham, you are correct…I signed the agreement knowing that their “law” had a size limit and knowing the FCC rules trumps the HOA rules.

I spoke with my atorney friend and he stated that this was a hot topic in our area a few years ago and that most attorneys advise their HOA clients not to touch this issue. He stated that I “don't have an issue unless they want to push it, which will most likely not happen”. I checked the other community HOAs in my area (most managed by the same PMC as the community I am moving into) and surprisingly, all HOA docs has been updated to comply with the FCC’s ruling! I didn’t this all would have modified their docs. That was a surprise.

Good point on the other dish sizes meinename! I drove through the community and found a few 18” dishes, but the majority are larger and from Direct TV and Dish network. They seem to be in direct violation of their own policy.

I understand that the sidewalk is my legal property, but I do not have exclusive use of it. I also understand that I can’t paint my house purple with orange shutters and place my washer and dryer on the front porch either, but what is irritating is someone of “authority” who makes “the law” in theses parts (without any real understanding of the law), at a simple, non-formal board meeting. Ugh!

I still will push to install the Fortec Star 100CM dish…thanks for the tip on its size! I thought it was 39.9 diameter and was not aware that it is basically 39x43.

Do you think they will have grounds on this even thought it is sold as a 1m dish? I haven’t bought the dish yet, so there is room to wiggle.

 

[TRG]

I still will push to install the Fortec Star 100CM dish…thanks for the tip on its size! I thought it was 39.9 diameter and was not aware that it is basically 39x43.

Do you think they will have grounds on this even thought it is sold as a 1m dish? I haven’t bought the dish yet, so there is room to wiggle.

You might be pushing your luck. If they come over to measure it and its over size you may have to take it down and start all over again. The long axis of most 90cm dishes come close to 1 meter. I'd do what Iceberg said and stick with a 90cm.

Good luck.

 

[homeyg]

Ok. Sounds good. I'm assuming that a 90CM will do just as good (in SW FL) as a 100CM?

 

[MikeinBaja]

If you know where the members of the board live in your community, drive by their houses with a camera and see if any of them have Dish or Direc mounted on their houses. If any of them do, odds are they are larger than 18".

Then the underlying implied message in your communications becomes "I put mine up or yours comes down".

Have used this very well in the past. Do it with tact though!

 

[homeyg]

I did just that and yes, one has a larger than 18" Dish Network dish. As I said before, I'm hoping they simply modify their HOA rules as other communities have done without conflict. I'm waiting for a reply. More to follow.

 

[Mr Tony]

Ok. Sounds good. I'm assuming that a 90CM will do just as good (in SW FL) as a 100CM?

yes it will...and the shipping is alot less (unless you're getting it locally)

 

[Mr Tony]

I did just that and yes, one has a larger than 18" Dish Network dish. As I said before, I'm hoping they simply modify their HOA rules as other communities have done without conflict. I'm waiting for a reply. More to follow.

anything other than a single LNB dish or Direct dish is "technically" violating their rules

a Dish 500 which has been installed stock for 10 years is 22x20

 

[homeyg]

Thanks iceberg. Question: would you offer to use a 36 instead of a 1m or wait until they reply?

 

[Mr Tony]

It all goes back to how anal they get when they lose (not if...when)

They may read the OTARD and measure and since its larger on one direction they could force you to remove it. If they understand that they lose, you might be able to get away with it.

 

[homeyg]

It all goes back to how anal they get when they lose (not if...when)

They may read the OTARD and measure and since its larger on one direction they could force you to remove it. If they understand that they lose, you might be able to get away with it.

At this point, I don't care about how anal they get. If the 90cm will work just as good as the 100, then I might as well go for the 90. What's the difference other than size and why one over the other?

 

[Mr Tony]

I have a 90cm dish and it works great. The main difference might be some rain fade but with the downpours Florida gets it could be the difference of 10 seconds instead of 6 if the signal cuts out

Folks use a 1m dish because usually "bigger is better" but as noted, the shipping of a 100cm dish is much more than a 90cm. I have a 90cm & a 76cm and I get 99% of the chanenls out there. Once in a blue while the 76cm can't get a very weak signal but the 90cm can