But these are two completely different situations - - - you're comparing apples to oranges.
If Michael Phelps lied to a grand jury, I'd want him prosecuted. If there was a picture of Barry Bonds hitting a bong, I wouldn't care.
How desperate is the government for Barry Bonds??!!
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But these are two completely different situations - - - you're comparing apples to oranges.
If Michael Phelps lied to a grand jury, I'd want him prosecuted. If there was a picture of Barry Bonds hitting a bong, I wouldn't care.
It does not help them hit more home runs, it helps them get stronger. You can be strong and still not hit alot of home runs. The speed of the bat through the strike zone generates the home runs. You need fast hands and strong wrists to generate that....NOT strong arms.
C'mon now. It helped Bonds, McGuire and Sosa (among others) hit more home runs. Just look at their numbers.
I think it's a given that in order to make it to the pro level, you also need to have the right hand-eye coordination and bat speed to hit a ball. Now add 'Roids to the mix and all these guys now have bigger muscles to hit the ball further. (I can't believe your actually arguing this). Quite simply put, 'Roids enhances the players ability to do what they did before with more power. More power = more home runs. Are you EVER right in an argument or discussion?
Yeah, we know, you told us this saga before. We still don't need to see another discussion on a relevant sports topic interrupted by a pissing contest. Those are perfect for PMs!!
Um, duh. Otherwise all Pro Wrestlers and body builders would be the targeted recruit for any MLB team! But you are missing the point. Major League baseball players were taking 'Roids, not a common person off the streets! Of course they also need other sets of skills to succeed at this level, but add 'Roids to the mix and now player X can hit the ball further.
How come it didn't help Pudge Rodriguez? He has forever been rumor to us 'roids and he is as strong as an ox. How come Canseco who more than likely used more than ANYONE ELSE, never hit more than 40 home runs 3 times in his career? Or how come Ken Caminiti, who was a self admitting MAJOR 'roid user for most of his career, never hit more than 40 homers but once.....??!!
Again, these guys use roids to prolong their careers and be able to play 150-155 games a year for as many games as possible. NOT for home runs....
Never hit more than 40 HRs? So what? That doesn't mean their power numbers weren't helped by roids. Look at the stats of the players you mentioned. Notice any trends?
I can't believe we're even having this conversation....How do you account for the increased power numbers for Bonds in his late 30s?
Steroids does not automatically mean you'll hit 70 home runs. You'll just be better than you were before. For a longer period of time. It's all relative.
Perhaps Canseco and Caminiti (and many others) would not have been able to do what they did without steroids.
Pudge is actually a perfect example. He stopped being hitting well as soon as he shrunk down to normal size.
Sandra
I swear to God if someone posted a thread saying the sky was blue, you'd argue that too.
Here is some more:
http://movementarian.com/2005/10/02/steroids-do-not-make-you-a-better-baseball-player/
And here is some more....
Do steroids help Barry Bonds hit home runs?
Due to Bonds’ prolific home run hitting and investigations tying the former San Francisco Giant slugger with potential use of steroids, more and more people are questioning if his attempt to pass these time-honored baseball marks is legitimate.
While many people on moral grounds want to dismiss Bonds’ achievements because he might have used an illegal drug, would steroid use really help him hit more home runs? Does more muscle equal more distance on a flying baseball?
Those are very tough questions to answer with purely scientific data. Baseball players of different eras were facing different pitchers throwing different balls in different stadiums. And within the game of baseball, there’s more support than you might think that Bonds’ achievements have more to do with pure baseball skills than possible increased muscle mass due to steroids.
Star Tribune sports columnist Pat Reusse put that question to several current and past Minnesota Twins during spring training. And what they had to say could be surprising to anti-steroid purists:
"The truth is, there were so many guys taking steroids for a few years, and they couldn't hit like Barry Bonds. In my opinion, a guy hitting with a corked bat is taking a bigger advantage than someone who was on steroids,” said Twins outfielder Shannon Stewart. "If Bonds was doing all of this ... you still have to hit the ball. He still was going to hit 40 or 50 (each season), with or without steroids."
Maybe you’d expect such a comment from a current player looking to come to the defense of a colleague under siege in the court of public opinion. But what does a former baseball legend think? Here’s what Tony Oliva, former American League batting champ and current hitting consultant had to say:
“I hope baseball can soon stop talking about steroids. What I do know is the ballparks (today) are smaller and the ball is harder. I know those are two reasons for more home runs. Maybe steroids were the third reason. I don't know.”
Hall of Famer Paul Molitor chimed in with this take on the situation about Bonds’ late-career home run surge:
"As much as it might appear to be overwhelming evidence on the surface -- alarming physical transformation and a mysterious upgrade in power later in a career -- it's not a black and white issue. It's very strong speculation, but it's still speculation."
So what does it take to hit a home run? Reflecting back on the vintage film showing Babe Ruth at bat, he was by no means a chiseled athlete. Yet he had the knack to be the premier home run hitter for much of the game’s history. And Hank Aaron, the current career home run king, wasn’t Goliath, either, and was known for his all-around ability to play all phases of the game.
An essay by Robert Nishihara has an interesting take on the home run/steroids question. He turns to the book The Science of Hitting by former Red Sox great Ted Williams, considered by man to be the best all-around hitter to ever play the game, to define what it takes to hit a home run.
Writes Nishihara:
“A good hitter must identify a pitch to hit, know enough about the pitcher and the game situation to give himself the best chance to succeed, and put hands and hips into motion to drive the pitch. Nowhere does Williams mention that muscle mass aides in any of those critical elements. Williams, himself, of course, was rail-thin, and yet, he managed to crank out 521 career homers.”
“Sure, added muscle mass may increase the distance a player is able to hit a baseball, but what negative effect does that added mass have in altering the fluidity of the player's swing and, thus, his ability to hit the ball in the first place? A popular baseball refrain cautions fast players who have deficiencies in the batter's box that one cannot steal first base. Similarly, a power hitter cannot hit a home run if he cannot hit the ball. And hitting a baseball is a unique skill in the world of sports. It is a powerful act that does not require extraordinary muscle strength. Instead, it is primarily dependent on technique, reflexes, and hand-eye coordination, not brute strength. It is a correlation that so many people are failing to make these days.”
On top of that, many of the players to be disciplined in the last couple season for steroid use have been pitchers. If you believe steroid use helps a player hit the ball farther, then did steroids also help a pitcher throw harder? Would that make it harder for a player to hit a home run?
In my mind, all of these questions raise even more questions as to the impact steroids have on the records and performance of the game. Don’t get me wrong: I’m not advocating using illegal drugs in sports, but their impact on the game and its records isn’t as clear as things might seem on the surface.
Do steroids help Barry Bonds hit home runs? | Science Buzz
http://movementarian.com/2005/10/02/steroids-do-not-make-you-a-better-baseball-player/
And here is some more....
Do steroids help Barry Bonds hit home runs?
Due to Bonds’ prolific home run hitting and investigations tying the former San Francisco Giant slugger with potential use of steroids, more and more people are questioning if his attempt to pass these time-honored baseball marks is legitimate.
While many people on moral grounds want to dismiss Bonds’ achievements because he might have used an illegal drug, would steroid use really help him hit more home runs? Does more muscle equal more distance on a flying baseball?
Those are very tough questions to answer with purely scientific data. Baseball players of different eras were facing different pitchers throwing different balls in different stadiums. And within the game of baseball, there’s more support than you might think that Bonds’ achievements have more to do with pure baseball skills than possible increased muscle mass due to steroids.
Star Tribune sports columnist Pat Reusse put that question to several current and past Minnesota Twins during spring training. And what they had to say could be surprising to anti-steroid purists:
"The truth is, there were so many guys taking steroids for a few years, and they couldn't hit like Barry Bonds. In my opinion, a guy hitting with a corked bat is taking a bigger advantage than someone who was on steroids,” said Twins outfielder Shannon Stewart. "If Bonds was doing all of this ... you still have to hit the ball. He still was going to hit 40 or 50 (each season), with or without steroids."
Maybe you’d expect such a comment from a current player looking to come to the defense of a colleague under siege in the court of public opinion. But what does a former baseball legend think? Here’s what Tony Oliva, former American League batting champ and current hitting consultant had to say:
“I hope baseball can soon stop talking about steroids. What I do know is the ballparks (today) are smaller and the ball is harder. I know those are two reasons for more home runs. Maybe steroids were the third reason. I don't know.”
Hall of Famer Paul Molitor chimed in with this take on the situation about Bonds’ late-career home run surge:
"As much as it might appear to be overwhelming evidence on the surface -- alarming physical transformation and a mysterious upgrade in power later in a career -- it's not a black and white issue. It's very strong speculation, but it's still speculation."
So what does it take to hit a home run? Reflecting back on the vintage film showing Babe Ruth at bat, he was by no means a chiseled athlete. Yet he had the knack to be the premier home run hitter for much of the game’s history. And Hank Aaron, the current career home run king, wasn’t Goliath, either, and was known for his all-around ability to play all phases of the game.
An essay by Robert Nishihara has an interesting take on the home run/steroids question. He turns to the book The Science of Hitting by former Red Sox great Ted Williams, considered by man to be the best all-around hitter to ever play the game, to define what it takes to hit a home run.
Writes Nishihara:
“A good hitter must identify a pitch to hit, know enough about the pitcher and the game situation to give himself the best chance to succeed, and put hands and hips into motion to drive the pitch. Nowhere does Williams mention that muscle mass aides in any of those critical elements. Williams, himself, of course, was rail-thin, and yet, he managed to crank out 521 career homers.”
“Sure, added muscle mass may increase the distance a player is able to hit a baseball, but what negative effect does that added mass have in altering the fluidity of the player's swing and, thus, his ability to hit the ball in the first place? A popular baseball refrain cautions fast players who have deficiencies in the batter's box that one cannot steal first base. Similarly, a power hitter cannot hit a home run if he cannot hit the ball. And hitting a baseball is a unique skill in the world of sports. It is a powerful act that does not require extraordinary muscle strength. Instead, it is primarily dependent on technique, reflexes, and hand-eye coordination, not brute strength. It is a correlation that so many people are failing to make these days.”
On top of that, many of the players to be disciplined in the last couple season for steroid use have been pitchers. If you believe steroid use helps a player hit the ball farther, then did steroids also help a pitcher throw harder? Would that make it harder for a player to hit a home run?
In my mind, all of these questions raise even more questions as to the impact steroids have on the records and performance of the game. Don’t get me wrong: I’m not advocating using illegal drugs in sports, but their impact on the game and its records isn’t as clear as things might seem on the surface.
Do steroids help Barry Bonds hit home runs? | Science Buzz
Exactly. Here are Ken Caminiti's career numbers. Compare the stats from his Padres years to his earlier seasons with equivalent or even more ABs:
Code:
Yr Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG
1987 Astros 63 203 10 50 7 1 3 23 0.246 0.287 0.335
1988 Astros 30 83 5 15 2 0 1 7 0.181 0.225 0.241
1989 Astros 161 585 71 149 31 3 10 72 0.255 0.316 0.369
1990 Astros 153 541 52 131 20 2 4 51 0.242 0.302 0.309
1991 Astros 152 574 65 145 30 3 13 80 0.253 0.312 0.383
1992 Astros 135 506 68 149 31 2 13 62 0.294 0.35 0.441
1993 Astros 143 543 75 142 31 0 13 75 0.262 0.321 0.39
1994 Astros 111 406 63 115 28 2 18 75 0.283 0.352 0.495
1995 Padres 143 526 74 159 33 0 26 94 0.302 0.38 0.513
1996 Padres 146 546 109 178 37 2 40 130 0.326 0.408 0.621
1997 Padres 137 486 92 141 28 0 26 90 0.29 0.389 0.508
1998 Padres 131 452 87 114 29 0 29 82 0.252 0.353 0.509
1999 Astros 78 273 45 78 11 1 13 56 0.286 0.386 0.476
2000 Astros 59 208 42 63 13 0 15 45 0.303 0.419 0.582
2001 Rangers 54 185 24 43 8 1 9 25 0.232 0.318 0.432
2001 Braves 64 171 12 38 9 0 6 16 0.222 0.306 0.38It's obviously a sheer coincidence that home run records were destroyed like no time in history during the steroid era.
Sandra
I swear to God if someone posted a thread saying the sky was blue, you'd argue that too.
The difference between you and me is I look at ALL angles of any discussion. Not the popular one, not the one everyone seems to agree with and not the one that everyone has read and likes.
It's called taking off the blinkers...you should try it some time....clears up alot of things sometimes when you try it.
