Low HD picture quality, high compression or what???

[cameron119]

Actually it was used in the last one. Didn't you see it in the dashboard of his Austin Martin?

I'm sorry guys...that was the Echostar 6000. You guys don't know your James Bond.

It turns out that the 811 will be making its debut in "View to a Kill--Revolutions" (assuming Echostar will have them in stock). Christopher Walken is returning as the mutant Zorin. Grace Jones is playing Chuck Ergen. They're even bringing back Roger Moore for this jewel!

 

[Conjuror]

Too bad. I was hoping to get some help here guys not to read your monologues. If you ask me, both boxes are garbage. I already had to reboot Voom box 3-4 times and I have just one day. It reminds me a lot of Microsoft.
811 is not any better. I guess that is why I wanted to get Voom.
But I can live with rebooting few times a week. It is the PQ that bothers me and I see no reasonable responses here beside Sean's and couple other guys. Please help if you can and don't post anything here if not.

 

[cameron119]

You don't like Grace Jones?

The #1 reason we have reacted in this manner is due to the fact that all threads that read as your OP does usually signify an author that is on "autotroll."

 

[wasch_24]

Too bad. I was hoping to get some help here guys not to read your monologues. If you ask me, both boxes are garbage. I already had to reboot Voom box 3-4 times and I have just one day. It reminds me a lot of Microsoft.
811 is not any better. I guess that is why I wanted to get Voom.
But I can live with rebooting few times a week. It is the PQ that bothers me and I see no reasonable responses here beside Sean's and couple other guys. Please help if you can and don't post anything here if not.

Help with what? You get the best PQ with E* so why deal with any of it? Just get rid of Voom if you aren't getting anything better than SD quality in your opinion.

 

[cameron119]

I think Grace Jones was a good actress. Certainly unique.

So you hate Grace and Voom. They should come together against this anti Voom/Jones sentiment and conquer it!

 

[Sean Mota]

Too bad. I was hoping to get some help here guys not to read your monologues. If you ask me, both boxes are garbage. I already had to reboot Voom box 3-4 times and I have just one day. It reminds me a lot of Microsoft.
811 is not any better. I guess that is why I wanted to get Voom.
But I can live with rebooting few times a week. It is the PQ that bothers me and I see no reasonable responses here beside Sean's and couple other guys. Please help if you can and don't post anything here if not.

I have dish on two Tvs - DLP and LCD. Both HDTVs and 720p and 768p native resolution respectively. I also have VOOM on both Tvs set at 720p resolution from the VOOM box.

I have done numerous comparisons between the two on both Tvs. The only channels were a fair assessment can be done are HBO, SHO, & Discovery HD (and now ESPN-HD) because both providers have them. I have compared the same movies at the same time on both providers. I have done this comparison continously from when VOOM started up to today. You can read all my posts about it. I have found that the PQ is equal in both. No bias here since I almost left because PQ on V* degraded at one point. I do not see what you are seeing.

HDnet & World Sport is not fair to compare. They both cover Soccer games but the production and angles, lighting, conditions, stadium, and everything else can affect either PQ. When HDnet comes to VOOM, I will make the same comparison. As of today, I do understand that HDnet is one of the best looking channel out there. They know how to do HD - no question about it. CBS also has had exceptional events in HD that leaves you with your mouth open. ABC & ESPN and others can learn a little from them.

You may talk everything about compression but unless you can look at the data stream and tell me how much compression E* is putting on HBO, SHO, ESPN and Discovery HD and then measure the amount of compression that V* uses and compare them, everything is subjective. Even my own comparison are subjectives. But I have read and consulted with other people who looked at the V* PQs and have come to the same conclusion. PQ between D* vs V* or E* vs V* is the same in the channels common to both (this assumes that there is no technical problems in either one).

 

[DarrellP]

Conjuror, has your box received the latest software update yet? If not, leave it off overnight, that is probably part of your problem. Once you get the upgrade, you should be in good shape.

I have the Dish HD Pack and Voom and I can tell you, there is little difference and I am viewing on a 110" screen. HDNET is the best HD channel on Earth, but DiscHD, ESPNHD and OTA are equal on both boxes. Actually, that's a lie, the Voom box is a bit better than my Dish 6000 because I am using DVI.

 

[Sean Mota]

Here's a technical post about bandwith use. This was done back in November. If you or anybody can reproduce the same analysis, and show that the "variable bit rate" has changed, we could have something to show.

Source

Posted by: rodhew 11-26-03 12:21 PM

I finally got around to looking at the Voom DBS service with my TSReader application (http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader) and thought some of you might be interested.

Voom operates from the 61.5 west orbital location with 11 transponders officially allocated and STA for two more. All other frequencies at 61.5 west are allocated and used by Echostar and Dominium. DBS transponders in North America are 24MHz wide with around 22MHz usable.

Voom's carriers use 8PSK modulation with a symbol rate of 22.000 Mega-Symbols per second and three-bits per symbol giving a raw rate of 66 Mbps per transponder. Inner FEC is turbo-code at a 5/6 and outer FEC is Reed-Solomon. This results in a usable bandwidth of around 51 Mbps per transponder.

In comparison, Dish Network's QPSK carrier used for HBO-HD at 61.5 has a rate of around 27 Mbps and their 8PSK carrier at 61.5 with 2/3 code-rate gets around 41 Mbps.

The transport stream carried on their transponders is MPEG-2 standard. Voom uses Motorola's Digicipher II system for both conditional access and systems (things like channel names, transponder locations, program guide etc). DCII was developed many years ago by General Instrument before they were aquired by Motorola. They were heavily involved in the Grand Alliance that came up with the ATSC specifications. Needless to say, DCII and ATSC are very similar systems.

All video in the system is encoded in variable bit rate MPEG-2. From observing bandwidth used by each PID (shown by TSReader) I see an average of around 2-3 Mbps for SD channels and around 12 Mbps for HD. The highest I've seen is around 16 Mbps. This compares with about 13-14 Mbps for Showtime and HBO HD and 17+ Mbps for HDNet on Dish Network.

All audio in the DCII system uses Dolby's AC3 system. SD channels and Music Choice run 192Kbps and HD channels 384Kbps.

Virtually all the programming on Voom is scrambled. The exception being their barker channel (Inside Voom) and the Music Choice channels. The barker channel is encoded at 1440x1080 (2/3 horizontal resolution) and then interpolated out by the receiver. This is very similar to the way in which most DBS service providers encode SD material at 2/3 resolution (see http://www.coolstf.com/mpeg for more info).

The Music Choice channels also have associated on-screen graphics while the channel is tuned. These are delivered as MPEG-2 still pictures at very low rate and refresh every few seconds. These are encoded at 544x480 progressive.

In the MPEG-2 transport model, when the encoders multiplexed together don't have enough data to fill the bandwidth of the channel (a satellite transponder in this case), null packets are inserted into the stream. By measuring the bitrate of these null packets one can see the available room left in the channel for more data.

Taking a look through each transponder used by Voom, some are already quite full with about 2% null packets. This is very typical for VBR encoded DBS services - Dish Network is pretty much the same way. Quite a few transponders (6 or more - don't remember the exact number) had 30 to 40% null packets, so there's plenty of room left in the system for more channels.

That's about it. Real pitty that just about everything there is scrambled. Would have hoped during their free preview to customers they'd keep the CA turned off.

Oh, must also nominate the guy on their barker channel as Biggest Douchebag in the Universe - quite clearly stealing the title from John Edward

Cheers,
Rod

 

[Conjuror]

You may be right guys. I spend most of my TV time watching HDNet and Discovery HD - therefore my expectations may be somewhat too high. Almost everything I see on HDNet is truly stunning - especially "Bikini Destinations" . I will also check which software version is installed on my box. It should help if it is outdated.

 

[slffl]

I'm thinking this pixelation we're seeing is due to the STB. I can see it on OTA channels, and if I understand it correctly, OTA HD should have no compression at all right?

 

[DarrellP]

I'm thinking this pixelation we're seeing is due to the STB. I can see it on OTA channels, and if I understand it correctly, OTA HD should have no compression at all right?

WRONG!! It depends on your station. Our local CBS compresses the signal down to about 12 Mbs and also broadcasts a sub channel for SD. During an important HD event, they will kill the SD sub channel and crank up the HD channel to the full bitrate.

 

[cameron119]

I'm thinking this pixelation we're seeing is due to the STB. I can see it on OTA channels, and if I understand it correctly, OTA HD should have no compression at all right?

Why? Because it isn't an Echostar model?

Before Echostar was ever a stain on Chuck Ergen's "matress", Motorola was producing high-quality satellite equipment for government and industry.

If Motorola has somehow taken MPEG2 and changed it to suit their agenda to pixelize high-definition, I suppose you're right. I prefer to ignore conspiracy theories, though.

Wasn't Digicipher developed by Scientific Atlanta?

 

[vurbano]

OTA channels always have occasional pixelation. My D* OTA tuner was the same. ITS not the tuner. ITS not D* or V*. If you have OTA you will occasionally have events of pixelation. depends on your reception, depends on the weather, depends on leaves filling the trees, isotropic events etc.

the following is a quote from my local ABC engineer after I accused him of turning down the power during the day.

"There is no variation of power from the time the transmitter is turned on at 5 AM until it is turned off around midnight. However, there are diurnal variations with atmospheric conditions, like tropospheric ducting, that can have an effect on signal. Also, multipath can be aggravated by emerging vegetation as leaves, especially wet ones, can attenuate signals and reflect them. You can be assured that WVEC is not running at reduced power during daytime hours. "

 

[vurbano]

WRONG!! It depends on your station. Our local CBS compresses the signal down to about 12 Mbs and also broadcasts a sub channel for SD. During an important HD event, they will kill the SD sub channel and crank up the HD channel to the full bitrate.

My local PBS station has one HD channel and 3 count them 3 SD channels with full programming cut out of the bandwidth! PBSkids, an sd channel running the same contant as the HD channel, and an educational sd channel! The 1080i pixelated so bad they had to convert to 720p.

 

[briani]

I have both Voom and Dish, in my direct comparisons the HD PQ is equal.

 

[Mike J]

Just the facts, maam...

It would be nice if someone was able to measure the video signal out of the box (baseband) and tell us quantitatively the metrics of each respective signal...all else is totally subjective.

Broadcasters, in the studio, can measure their signal and know, for example, if it meets the very exacting FCC standards for broadcast OTA transmission...I am talking visual signal clarity (full field color bar waveforms, vector waveforms), luminence, and btw, audio clarity as well!

Any broadcast engineers out there willing to spend some time doing some testing? It would be interesting to the rest of us...

 

[rexoverbey]

Picture quality has really improved with voom in the past couple of weeks. I don't see any pixelation at all, and haven't seen a stutter in a couple of days. Voom must be doing something right.

 

[vurbano]

Picture quality has really improved with voom in the past couple of weeks. I don't see any pixelation at all, and haven't seen a stutter in a couple of days. Voom must be doing something right.

I was home watching today. I thought discoveryhd was awesome today. the sd effect is gone with that station IMO. I just never had the stuttering problem though.

 

[Conjuror]

Second night of watching Voom and Dish, side by side. I have to correct my previous posts: pixelation does not occur on every Voom channel. Non-Voom HD channels look almost exactly the same as on Dish. There is very slight difference in color temperature but this is adjustable. Also, HD News looks fine.
However, I still see small pixelation on Voom's cinema channels, WorldSport, Rave, and on some non-studio taped material on HD News. If you ever burned a DVD on DVDX Copy and used 20-30% compression, you'll know exactly what I am talking about. If you pay close attention on cinema channels you'll have to see it, especially on fast moving images. I do not see this kind of pixelation on HDNet Movies. Voom must be doing something different on its cimema channels.

 

[Dvlos]

Wait, last night my ol' man came over, I put on WorldSports (he has DIsh and got HDTV), the only difference in our TV's is size. My ol' man nearly cried! Unfortunately he's locked into a contract with Dish for 7 more months.

HDNews and WorldSports are excellent 1080i show off channels IMO. Maybe you have the same problem I do (unrelated), maybe your installer did a hack and slash job of installing it.

I counted the hairs on Bekham's head I was up to 12,382,392 when I got tired (yes I'm exagerating). You can see pixelation on some channels, mainly the Cinema1's I know they are using Mpeg2 now, but it still looks damn good, when they switch to Mpeg4 that should be improved somewhat.