Manning vs Brady

[duchen]

Last night, Brady handled..

the pressure, receivers dropping passes and the inability of the Pats short yardage running game to get first downs.

It makes you wonder how he shared QB duties with anyone at Michigan.

He is an all time great-- in my view, the best I have ever seen. He elevates mediocre talent and makes the great players even better.

And, even when his numbers were down, in the end, he found a way to win. Great throw to Gafney!


I though Don Sula was excellent in his obervations last night. He commnted concisely on things the other announcers did not even notice.

Jaworski played for Miami 1 year.

 

[salsadancer7]

the pressure, receivers dropping passes and the inability of the Pats short yardage running game to get first downs.

It makes you wonder how he shared QB duties with anyone at Michigan.

He is an all time great-- in my view, the best I have ever seen. He elevates mediocre talent and makes the great players even better.

And, even when his numbers were down, in the end, he found a way to win. Great throw to Gafney!


I though Don Sula was excellent in his obervations last night. He commnted concisely on things the other announcers did not even notice.

Jaworski played for Miami 1 year.

He is one of the best QBs in our lifetime...but he does not elevate anyones talents. IF ANYTHING, it is the other way around!! QBs don't run the recievers routes? They don't tell the RBs what holes to hit and they don't tell offensive linemen HOW to pull....

ANYONE who thinks that.....is VERY mistaken. ASK ANYONE who has EVER played QB at any level, they will ALL tell you the same. Checkout ANY NFL QBs interviews.

 

[ONUOsFan]

He is an all time great-- in my view, the best I have ever seen. He elevates mediocre talent and makes the great players even better.

You obviously missed this post from me back on page one of this thread, so here is is again, in response to your comments about Brady making others better, and being the best ever...

I'll give you Caldwell - that guy is a mess and lost you the AFC Championship last year (so Brady didn't actually make him better, did he?).

David Patten is on pace for about the same amount of yards with NO this year that he had in his two best years with NE, so he's not any worse off without Brady.

Gaffney is still with the Pats and is making some pretty big plays for them - at least in the games I've seen - although he's obviously not the #1 option like he was last year.

Branch is still a good receiver in Seattle - he's just been hurt more than he's been healthy since he's been there.

So, of the four guys you mentioned, I don't see that Brady made a difference to any of them. Caldwell stunk with Brady AND without him, Gaffney is still there and the other two have had comparable production away from Brady.

......

As far as being the better commander and knowing the offense inside and out... Manning runs the entire offense from the field during the game, with no huddle AND no wristband. Need I say more?

 

[sidekick]

I've seen them both, up close and personal. If I had to choose between them, I would choose Brady ... without question or regret.

 

[duchen]

Brady won..

Super Bowls with some of the mediocre receivers above. Let's see Manning win another one without Harrison, Wayne and Clark.

As for youargument that you dont think that Brady makes these guys better, look at Moss with the Raiders. Your statistical references (which I dont have the time to verify) prove nothing.

Throughout his career, Brady has won when Manning has lost. Remember the playoff game in Miami where the Colts lost in OT (the best Manning could do was get in position for a 50+ yard field goal)?

People who insult Brady's field generalship dont know the game. He poroves it by regularly running the "no huddle" and by the 4th quaret comebacks.

Anyway, this argument is tiresome. I did read the post regarding the receivers around Brady and whether he makes the Pats better. I ignored it.

 

[salsadancer7]

As for youargument that you dont think that Brady makes these guys better, look at Moss with the Raiders. Your statistical references (which I dont have the time to verify) prove nothing.

People who insult Brady's field generalship dont know the game. He poroves it by regularly running the "no huddle" and by the 4th quaret comebacks.

Anyway, this argument is tiresome. I did read the post regarding the receivers around Brady and whether he makes the Pats better. I ignored it.

Your lost....LMAO. With the Raiders he did NOTHING. Prime example is look at Moss and what he did in Minnesota. Randall Cunningham came to the Vikings when Moss WAS there...and what happened...34 TDs and only 10 INTs. Lead the ENTIRE NFL with a 106 passing rating. Lead the Vikings to a 15-1 record and the TEAM scored an NFL RECORD 556 points. In 1999, Cunningham started the season crappy, so they bring in has-been Jeff George. In 10 games, what did HE do with Moss....oh, I don't know....23 TDs and 6 INTs and a 94 rating. In 2000, when Daunte Came in, 33 TDs and 16 INTs in his 2nd year in the league. He had some issues with healthy and struggles, but then he had a huge year, Moss's LAST YEAR where he had 39 TDs and 11 INTs. He has not been the same since.

Conclussion....Randy Moss was NEVER MADE BETTER by ANY QB...if anything he has ELEVATED, REJUVENATED and KICK STARTED careers of QBs. IF the Patriots DID NOT have Moss, yeah...they would be good....but NO WHERE near this good. HOW many of those TD passes that Brady have were basically thrown up IN HOPES that Randy Moss, IN DOUBLE COVERAGE I may add, comes down with the catch....what? 7, 8 maybe 9? MY FACTS PROVE IT....what do you have to bring to the conversation?

 

[ONUOsFan]

Super Bowls with some of the mediocre receivers above. Let's see Manning win another one without Harrison, Wayne and Clark.

Give him Vinatieri (how many big kicks did Vanderjerk miss?) and their defense those years, and I'd take that wager.

As for youargument that you dont think that Brady makes these guys better, look at Moss with the Raiders. Your statistical references (which I dont have the time to verify) prove nothing.

Salsadancer said it better than I can. Brady hasn't made Moss better, it's the other way around. Moss didn't try with the Raiders.

Throughout his career, Brady has won when Manning has lost. Remember the playoff game in Miami where the Colts lost in OT (the best Manning could do was get in position for a 50+ yard field goal)?

Yep, I remember that game well. The Colts had a pretty crappy team that year.

People who insult Brady's field generalship dont know the game. He poroves it by regularly running the "no huddle" and by the 4th quaret comebacks.

I never insulted his "field generalship." He's a great quarterback. But I do think there is a difference between "regularly running the no huddle" while reading your wristband and calling the entire game from the field without one. And Manning has a few 4th quarter comebacks of his own.

Anyway, this argument is tiresome.

Probably because you're losing it.

I did read the post regarding the receivers around Brady and whether he makes the Pats better. I ignored it.

Probably because it proves you're wrong.

 

[Hart5150]

Give him Vinatieri (how many big kicks did Vanderjerk miss?) and their defense those years, and I'd take that wager.

While Vanderjagt was with the Colts he was the most accurate kicker in NFL history, of course it is easier when you kick in a dome, I guess.

Vinatieri missed big kicks in 2002 that cost the Patriots a division title and a chance to repeat.

Salsadancer said it better than I can. Brady hasn't made Moss better, it's the other way around. Moss didn't try with the Raiders.

Brady won 3 Superbowls and 2 MVP's without Moss, It is Moss who took the pay cut to come here and play with Tom Brady.

Yep, I remember that game well. The Colts had a pretty crappy team that year.



I never insulted his "field generalship." He's a great quarterback. But I do think there is a difference between "regularly running the no huddle" while reading your wristband and calling the entire game from the field without one. And Manning has a few 4th quarter comebacks of his own.

Brady has the most in the NFL since he became the starter, he call the plays in the 2 minute hurry up offense.

Probably because you're losing it.

No he is probably sick of the same know nothing garbage that is expected of rival fans and sports writers.

Probably because it proves you're wrong.

Doubtful considering when it has counted, Brady has played well in in defeat, when they lost the AFC championship last year, he put up more than 3 points.

 

[ONUOsFan]

No he is probably sick of the same know nothing garbage that is expected of rival fans and sports writers.

And we're all sick of the know-it-all garbage that is expected of NE sports fans.

BTW - Vanderjagt missed at least two kicks that I can think of off the top of my head, probably more, that cost the Colts playoff games (they haven't had to worry too much about winning the division). I don't think you can say that about Vinatieri, and you conveniently forgot the defense, which, by the way, also contributes to a 4th quarter comeback...

 

[BlackHitachi]

Your lost....LMAO. With the Raiders he did NOTHING. Prime example is look at Moss and what he did in Minnesota. Randall Cunningham came to the Vikings when Moss WAS there...and what happened...34 TDs and only 10 INTs. Lead the ENTIRE NFL with a 106 passing rating. Lead the Vikings to a 15-1 record and the TEAM scored an NFL RECORD 556 points. In 1999, Cunningham started the season crappy, so they bring in has-been Jeff George. In 10 games, what did HE do with Moss....oh, I don't know....23 TDs and 6 INTs and a 94 rating. In 2000, when Daunte Came in, 33 TDs and 16 INTs in his 2nd year in the league. He had some issues with healthy and struggles, but then he had a huge year, Moss's LAST YEAR where he had 39 TDs and 11 INTs. He has not been the same since.

Conclussion....Randy Moss was NEVER MADE BETTER by ANY QB...if anything he has ELEVATED, REJUVENATED and KICK STARTED careers of QBs. IF the Patriots DID NOT have Moss, yeah...they would be good....but NO WHERE near this good. HOW many of those TD passes that Brady have were basically thrown up IN HOPES that Randy Moss, IN DOUBLE COVERAGE I may add, comes down with the catch....what? 7, 8 maybe 9? MY FACTS PROVE IT....what do you have to bring to the conversation?

AMEN!:up

 

[seminole2001]

Brady!

Manning is a bitch, in his 4 years at UT he never beat Florida once!

 

[ONUOsFan]

Brady!

Manning is a bitch, in his 4 years at UT he never beat Florida once!

Wow. Thanks for that insightful comment.

I was actually going to drop this debate, but I had to add in one more thing after reading this from Bill Simmons on ESPN.com:

• I joked about this in last week's chat, but I hope everyone got a chance to read this Boston Globe article about NBC "inadvertently" picking up many of Brady's audibles in the Eagles-Pats game. What was worse: Belichick videotaping someone with a camera from 50 yards away, or NBC zooming in within 3 feet of Brady for half of his no-huddle calls?

If Brady's such a great field general, why is he so worried about getting his audibles overheard? Is he not smart enough to change them up once in a while? They've been doing this to Peyton Manning for years and you've never heard the Colts complain about it.

 

[duchen]

Culpepper & Moss..

Culpepper blew out his knee 2 years ago and doesn't have near the mobility he had before he was hurt. Ciulpepper is not the same player.

The "Moss didn't try" in Oakland argument is wearisome. I don't buy it. His quarterbacks there were awful.

I am no Pats fan; in fact, I hope they lose. But, I call it like I see it. Brady has won 3 Super Bowls with different tqalent @ him. No running game, really good runners, ordinary and good receivers.

This year, they are 12-0 to date witg great receivers around him. There is no position more important than the QB.

While it is true that a football team needs more than a great quarterback, a mediocre or bad quarterback can ruin what is otherwise a great team. A great QB makes any team better just by his presence.

The great coaches know this. That's why QB is the highest paid position in the game. Don Shula was always looking for experienced, quality backups because of the importance of the position (e.g. Gary Cuozzo, John Stofa, George Mira, Earl Morrall, Don Strock, Scott Mitchell, Rob Jaworski, among others; he drafted Joe Theiseman when he already had Griese).

Look at the Dolphins with Marino: all those years of weak defenses and they still had winning seasons every year. Marino couldn't win a Super Bowl because Miami could never stop the really good teams when it counted.

As for Brady, Moss has not "elevated" him. They (and the rest of the Pats) are (to date) playing historically great football. By both playing at a great level, the Pats have played great so far.

If you do not think Moss' game is better because he is with Brady, you need to watch some of the bad throwsby the Raider QB's last year.

How about Welker's game; hasn't Brady made him a better player? Now that he can catch passes on the run, instead of serving asa stationary target, he is much better.

And, Jabbar Gaffney certainly looks better than when he was in Houston. Did you see that perfect sideline throw Monday night?

I noticed above that this discussion is degenerating into name calling and I do not like it.

 

[salsadancer7]

Culpepper blew out his knee 2 years ago and doesn't have near the mobility he had before he was hurt. Ciulpepper is not the same player.

The "Moss didn't try" in Oakland argument is wearisome. I don't buy it. His quarterbacks there were awful.

I am no Pats fan; in fact, I hope they lose. But, I call it like I see it. Brady has won 3 Super Bowls with different tqalent @ him. No running game, really good runners, ordinary and good receivers.

This year, they are 12-0 to date witg great receivers around him. There is no position more important than the QB.

While it is true that a football team needs more than a great quarterback, a mediocre or bad quarterback can ruin what is otherwise a great team. A great QB makes any team better just by his presence.

The great coaches know this. That's why QB is the highest paid position in the game. Don Shula was always looking for experienced, quality backups because of the importance of the position (e.g. Gary Cuozzo, John Stofa, George Mira, Earl Morrall, Don Strock, Scott Mitchell, Rob Jaworski, among others; he drafted Joe Theiseman when he already had Griese).

Look at the Dolphins with Marino: all those years of weak defenses and they still had winning seasons every year. Marino couldn't win a Super Bowl because Miami could never stop the really good teams when it counted.

As for Brady, Moss has not "elevated" him. They (and the rest of the Pats) are (to date) playing historically great football. By both playing at a great level, the Pats have played great so far.

If you do not think Moss' game is better because he is with Brady, you need to watch some of the bad throwsby the Raider QB's last year.

How about Welker's game; hasn't Brady made him a better player? Now that he can catch passes on the run, instead of serving asa stationary target, he is much better.

And, Jabbar Gaffney certainly looks better than when he was in Houston. Did you see that perfect sideline throw Monday night?

I noticed above that this discussion is degenerating into name calling and I do not like it.

1st of all. I AM a Raider fan, and I saw EVERY game the Raiders played when Moss was there...AND YES, he did have crappy QBs...but Moss was divided into three people...the one that had tons of injuries...the one that had crappy QBs throwing to him...and the one that didn't give a rats ass and didn't try. When he was in Minnesota, you rarely saw the last of the "3 Randys". NOW, Randy has a better team with better QBs...hell YOU or I would be having a great year under THAT offensive scheme. AND he is also healthy.

West Welker was an established reciever BEFORE he got to New England, if he wasn't...they would not given the Dolphins TWO draft picks. They did NOT "discover" Welker. YES, he has played a ton better because MOST of Pats offense is the passing game. What recievers game would not flourish under a system like that? Same applies to Gaffney, flourishing in a pass happy offense. IF they had a legit running game....not a great one, but just a legit one...SOMEONE would NOT be getting as many passes as he is getting now.

 

[Hart5150]

IF they had a legit running game....not a great one, but just a legit one...SOMEONE would NOT be getting as many passes as he is getting now.

Try watching a game once ,hater, your comments are baseless.

Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: The buxom bosom theory of NE's ground game

 

[BlackHitachi]

1st of all. I AM a Raider fan, and I saw EVERY game the Raiders played when Moss was there...AND YES, he did have crappy QBs...but Moss was divided into three people...the one that had tons of injuries...the one that had crappy QBs throwing to him...and the one that didn't give a rats ass and didn't try. When he was in Minnesota, you rarely saw the last of the "3 Randys". NOW, Randy has a better team with better QBs...hell YOU or I would be having a great year under THAT offensive scheme. AND he is also healthy.

West Welker was an established reciever BEFORE he got to New England, if he wasn't...they would not given the Dolphins TWO draft picks. They did NOT "discover" Welker. YES, he has played a ton better because MOST of Pats offense is the passing game. What recievers game would not flourish under a system like that? Same applies to Gaffney, flourishing in a pass happy offense. IF they had a legit running game....not a great one, but just a legit one...SOMEONE would NOT be getting as many passes as he is getting now.

AGREED!:up

 

[salsadancer7]

Try watching a game once ,hater, your comments are baseless.

Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: The buxom bosom theory of NE's ground game

Misleading facts.....

Alot of those stats are 'after the fact' stats:

No. 3 in rush attempts (junk time attempts when the game is well in hand)
No. 3 in yards per rush attempt(see above)
No. 1 in rushing first downs(short passes...ala "west coast offense" leads to ALOT of 2nd and 1 and 2nd and 2s)
No. 1 in the percentage of runs for a first down(ALSO see above)
No. 2 in rushing TDs(throwing bombs lead to ALOT of 1st and goals)
No. 2 in fewest fumbles(meaningless fact thrown in to make numbers look better)
No. 4 in percentage of run plays(yet team STILL throws almost 60%)

And thanks to Sunday Ticket, I see ALOT of New England games(force to, best friend is a BIG Pats fan)

Try thinking logically and NOT as a "homer"....

 

[sidekick]

Somehow I knew his statements would stir your juices Salsa! lol

Misleading facts.....

Alot of those stats are 'after the fact' stats:

No. 3 in rush attempts (junk time attempts when the game is well in hand)
No. 3 in yards per rush attempt(see above)
No. 1 in rushing first downs(short passes...ala "west coast offense" leads to ALOT of 2nd and 1 and 2nd and 2s)
No. 1 in the percentage of runs for a first down(ALSO see above)
No. 2 in rushing TDs(throwing bombs lead to ALOT of 1st and goals)
No. 2 in fewest fumbles(meaningless fact thrown in to make numbers look better)
No. 4 in percentage of run plays(yet team STILL throws almost 60%)

And thanks to Sunday Ticket, I see ALOT of New England games(force to, best friend is a BIG Pats fan)

Try thinking logically and NOT as a "homer"....

 

[salsadancer7]

Somehow I knew his statements would stir your juices Salsa! lol

LMAO...every few years, both in college football AND the NFL...there is this ONE team that stands out above everyone else in the regular season with the possibility of winning it all. And it's also the same thing from the media, "this team is accomplishing....." and "this team is one of the greatest....." and my favorite, "this team is gonna be special.....". Blah, blah, blah......
When I worked sport media, I saw it ALL THE TIME...the cliches flying all over the place....and the fans gets all revved up buying the hype and just not letting the season come to full completion....

Never fails....hook, line and sinker....same fish with the same bait....LOL

 

[Hart5150]

So please tell me Salsadancer, Are they running at the end of games bloating those stats? Or are they , as you have suggested, throwing the ball all over the place at the end of games? At least be consistent in your baseless opinions.