No more fighting sioux

[turbosat]

University of North Dakota Dropping 'Fighting Sioux' Nickname, Logo - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com Looks like they'll get a new name, according to that story. Politically correct Sioux? Competitive Sioux?

 

[brentb636]

FIGHTING SUE ? ( From "My name is Sue, how do you do ")

 

[turbosat]

FIGHTING SUE ? ( From "My name is Sue, how do you do &quot

Brent, if Johnny Cash was from ND, that would be a perfect solution, lol!

 

[Diamond Jim]

THIS SUCKS.........

 

[turbosat]

AGREED
Maybe we all should write the University and complain.

 

[mikekohl]

It's not a done deal, but political pressure is being put on UND by the NCAA and others---which will not let them participate in certain events unless they change their name. On the other side of the spectrum, the Fighting Sioux were going to be allowed to continue use of the name, provided that a few Indian tribes within North Dakota approved it. As usual with most Fox News coverage of anything, it is slanted towards sensationalism, which is this case was started by some activists sympathizing with a minority of voices within the Native American community. Call it politically correct if you wish...but it is not reality.

On the other side of things, thousands of Fighting Sioux emblems were cast into the Ralph Englestad arena, so that they could not be removed without destroying the building, which itself was built with a 100 million dollar donation from Englestad, who made millions in Las Vegas after leaving the Red River Valley many years ago. Technically the arena itself could be taken away from UND, because "Ralph" stipulated that the Fighting Sioux name had to stay or his donation could be taken back. His family really doesn't want this to get ugly, but there are very vocal people in both camps. One interesting sideline is that the Ralph Englestad arena is operated by a foundation separate from the University Of North Dakota.

State politicians as well as the head of UND appear to be caving in to political pressure, but local sentiment is dead set against changing the name. Serious money has been and is still being paid to American Indian organizations for use of the name and logo, so those "royalties" would disappear and benefit no one if the Fighting Sioux name has to be abandoned.

A similar thing happened in my high school (Grand Forks Central), which used to have the name "Redskins", deemed politically offensive many years ago. The current name has no spirit or tradition behind it---but enough noise was made to appease the politically correct crowd. Way back in 1993, at our 20th high school reunion, a very attractive door prize was a letterman's jacket with Grand Forks Central Redskins logo on it.

 

[Mr Tony]

This has been going on for years and Mike Kohl pretty much hit the nail on the head

When Ralph donated the money for the building, he said that if the name got changed he personally would demo the building (he is now dead but ya never know about the supernatural)

Also the NC$$ tried to take away the hockey regional finals form there a few years ago (the year Holy Cross beat Minnesota ) because they say no teams that have Indian nicknames can host NCAA playoff games. This was after the Ralph got the contract and the NC$$ thought the Raqlph should cover up all the logos

uh, yeah good luck...as MIke noted, there are thousands of Sioux logos in the building

our local high school (Shakopee Indians) had the same thing happen..local pressure to change it from the Indians. The thing those folks forget to realize is the town I live in, Shakopee, is named after........an Indian.

 

[turbosat]

Thanks for the info mike, very interesting (exc the crack about Fox News, THAT was opinion not based on fact, and belongs in The Pit).

 

[Mr Tony]

The UND has a link to the letter that Ralph wrote the president

Infamous letter from Ralph Engelstad to Charles Kupchella (UND President)

Dear Chuck:

I am sorry to have to write this letter, but as a businessman, I have no choice.

Commitments were made to me by others and yourself, regarding the Sioux logo and the Sioux slogan, before I started the arena and after it had been started.

These promises have not been kept, and I, as a businessman, cannot proceed while this cloud is still hanging above me.

I do not think that you realize the amount of work and the amount of people involved to make this new arena a success, and time is running out on us to accomplish what we have to do prior to its opening, such as selling tickets, advertising, installation of equipment and many other details that no one thinks of. All of this takes time.

I understand that you are to make a decision sometime in the future, but I do not understand where one person gets the authority to make this kind of a decision on behalf of all alumni, students, the city of Grand Forks and the state of North Dakota.

We previously had shut down (construction of the arena) for approximately two months, as per your request that we didn¹t do anything while you were working on the name. We took the logo and the slogan off of the Web site, and we have been trying to do our job, but we are faced with an uphill hurdle because of your indecisiveness.

I have been given the authority to use this logo and the slogan, and we have hesitated to do so in order to help you with your decision-making, but it has now come to the point that we must march forward. The only item that this logo and slogan have been used on, are the models of the arena which we sent out the first part of the week. These models were ordered many, many months ago, and are part of our advertising campaign to sell season tickets.

I figure that we must sell 10,000 tickets between now and July if we are going to fill this arena, and we need to fill this arena to make money for the UND hockey team and the athletic department.

I know what has been said in the past, and you know what has been said in the past, and if the commitments are not lived up to, then I have no reason to live up to my commitment to build an arena for the UND hockey team.

We are in the process of hiring more people to sell tickets and advertising, which does nothing to help us, but benefits UND.

Please be advised that if this logo and slogan are not approved by you no later than Friday, December 29, 2000, then you will leave me with no alternative to take the action which I think is necessary.

If the logo and slogan are not approved by the above-mentioned date, I will then write a letter on December 30, 2000, to all contractors and to everybody associated with the arena, canceling their construction contracts for the completion of the arena. I am a man of my word, and I will see to it that a settlement is made with all subcontractors, with anyone who has purchased prepaid advertising. I will refund money to all ticket holders and abandon the project. It would then be left up to you if you want to complete it, with money from wherever you may be able to find it.

I have spent, as of this time, in excess of $35 million, which I will consider a bad investment, but I will take my lumps and walk away.

As I am sure you realize, the commitment I made to the university of North Dakota was, I believe, one of the 10 largest ever made to a school of higher education, but if it is not completed, I am sure it will be the number one building never brought to completion at a school of higher education, due to your changing the logo and the slogan.

You need to think how changing this logo and slogan will affect not just the few that are urging the name change, but also how it will affect the university as a while, the students, the city of Grand forks, and the state of North Dakota.

If I walk away and abandon the project, please be advised that we will shut off all temporary heat going to this building, and I am sure that nature, through its cold weather, will completely destroy any portion of the building through frost that you might be able to salvage. I surely hoped that it would never come to this, but I guess it has.

It is a good thing that you are an educator because you are a man of indecision, and, and if you were a businessman, you would not succeed, you would be broke immediately.

Please do not consider this letter a threat in any7 manner, as it is not intended to be. It is only notification to you of exactly what I am going to do if you change this logo and this slogan.

In the event it is necessary to cancel the completion of the arena, I will then send notification to anyone who is interested, informing them of the same, and laying out to them all of the facts and all of the figures from all of the meetings that led me to make this decision.

Your lack of making a decision has hung over our heads too long, and we can¹t go on with it any further.

It is your choice if you want to put hundreds of construction workers out of a job, and deprive the local businesses of Grand forks of the income they are receiving f4rom the construction of the arena.

I might also add that while I was dictating this letter, I received a call from Dean Blais (UND¹s hockey coach), who is completely fed up, and he informed me that he is possibly going to tender his resignation if the logo and the slogan are changed.

Yours truly,
Ralph Engelstad

Dear Chuck

so this has been going on for years

 

[phlatwound]

Thanks for the info mike, very interesting (exc the crack about Fox News, THAT was opinion not based on fact, and belongs in The Pit).

I would have said it like this...

As usual with most news coverage of anything, it is slanted towards sensationalism.....

That is what news organizations do.

Interesting thread. :up

 

[Cadsulfide]

Fighting Sioux out of the Ralph, Bibles out of the classroom, where does it end?

When a vocal minority has finished protecting us from ourselves....who will protect us from our protectors?

 

[turbosat]

Exactly. I just hope they work it out before next hockey season because they're a good team to watch.

 

[SamCdbs]

NCAA - Big time schools like Florida State to Illinois, and not to mention 100 other schools with ethnological nicknames from Mountaineers to Cavaliers to Sooners to Jayhawks (a group of what would today be called war criminals, BTW) to Rebels to Irish - good.

Tiny UND in unpopulated North Dakota, bad.

 

[Mr Tony]

Some of the larger Universities like Florida State got the ok from the NC$$ to keep the name.

Sounds like someone has an issue with North Dakota

 

[TRG]

More political correctness gone awry. Pretty soon none of us will be able to say anything, look at any one or express feelings or opinions. I for one don't go out of my way to offend anyone but it seems to be unavoidable these days. When did everyone start being so damn sensitive?

Sorry for the rant but this subject pushes my buttons.

 

[nhulst]

Geez turbosat, way to scare me half to death! Specifically you meant the nickname, not the games broadcast on FTA. Of course, that's officially up in the air until the TV contract gets done, most likely in June sometime, but there's no reason to expect that it won't be on again.

To be fair, I think Ralph's letter is being taken a little bit out of context. At the time it was written, the building was only partially built and Ralph wanted some assurance the nickname was going to stay around because it was being used heavily for branding (in the marketing sense) within the arena and it was a major business issue. Of course the Engelstad family does feel strongly about keeping the nickname, but to worry that the building would be taken away at this point is kind of silly. What's more, in reference to the arena being under its own corporation and not the university, if the university complies (nickname removed from jerseys, publications, etc.) and the arena does not, the worst thing that could happen is that the arena can't host NCAA tournament games.

The concern about tearing the building apart (namely the logos set in granite) is already part of the settlement with the NCAA and those are staying no matter what.

These aren't the only points in the thread I disagree with, but with no Pit anymore, I'm going to let cooler heads prevail

 

[Peter Parker]

Some of the larger Universities like Florida State got the ok from the NC$$ to keep the name.

Sounds like someone has an issue with North Dakota

You neglect to mention that the Seminole tribe in Florida have approved the name----and if UND can get simialr approval from the two main tribal councils in ND they too will be allowed to keep the name. So i don't know how you can draw the conclusion that UND is being treated differently. In fac tit seems like they are being treated the same way as Florida State and a few other schools.


It si my understanding that one of the two tribes has held a referendum which split nearly 60-40 in favor of the nickname but this needs to be ratified by the tribal council. both tribal councils are working with the state to somehow extend the deadline.


you can call this political correctness gone awry if you choose but akll that si being asked here is that before the nickname can be used the people whose culture is being depicted approve. How that has anything to do with Cavaliers sooners, Jayhawks I don't know. I suppose the Irish paralell makes some sense but I am unaware of any Irish group that has ever expressed disapproval. So that comparison also falls apart.

yes i am part Native American. For the record I have no problem with the nickname if the Native people have no problem. i just think that they have something to say about their own culture and how it is used by the mainstream European American culture.


Because of that I hope the tribal councils (and tribes) are given the time they need to act. If they approve it great. but I bekieve taht it si their decision just as much as the university's.

 

[Peter Parker]

FWIW the Spirit lake Sioux have now approved the nickname. The question is whether the Standing Rock Sioux tribal council will do the same.