Once you hear HD)) AM Or FM You will never go back to normal AM/FM

[HDTVFanAtic]

I have heard HD radio and on the FM side it wasn't better then normal FM. The 3 stations here that offer it multicast (like on digital TV stations) and the multiple streams makes the main channel sound like Real Audio. AM was a little improvement though.

The downside is people with analogue hear a "hash" sound on carriers that program HD signals.

Absolute BS.

AM can sound like FM sounds now.

FM sounds better than the codec XM is using and far superior to the codec Sirius is using.

And it does nothing to make the audio on the main FM channel sound like Real Audio - its nothing like TV multicasting as the Main FM is analog and the HD is digital.

So your post is so full of it, you must work for a Satellite Radio Company.

AM does interfer with channels 2 up and down - but only within about 3 miles of an AM Transmitter that is 50,000 Watts. Considering there are very few of these (less than 50) and most are not near population centers, that will be minimal within a 3 mile radius.

The AM high end whine that plagued it was solved with the May 2005 encoder updates - long before any HD Radios were available.

So next time you want to slam something, try and at least post something with a minor amount of truth somewhere in it.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

This is what I worry about. I've yet to hear any HD, but all this talk about subchannels and the like makes me worry that they'll have the audio quality of Windows Media at 32 or 64k -- something no one would listen to for a long time in their car, and by no means an improvement over current radio.

When people start to brag about "digital quality," I start to worry. I work with "digital quality audio" daily at work, and if it's done right it sounds good. If it's done poorly, it sounds like crap.

Again, it sounds better than XM and far superior to Sirius.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

If I remember correctly the IBOC system has 96 kilbits to work with after the original signal is sent out in band digital. That can be divided any way the broadcaster wants so there could be a 64k music channel and a 32k talk channel or a complete 96k secondary channel.

Sam

No, fed regs require the main channel to be the 48kbps simulcast of the FM. You can then put a second signal up and no one is using anything but a 48kbps signal for the second HD Channel at this point. You then have enough for some data and a very low bandwidth 3rd channel - which sounds good enough for traffic reports, weather or low quality of that nature - certainly not close to music.

In 15 years when the main FM drops Analog, then you will have about 300kbps that will give you 8 48kbps channels - or however one decides to slice up the allocation of the 4, 5, 6, 7 etc channels.

 

[TNGTony]

Interresting link.

HD Radio product page here:
http://www.ibiquity.com/hdradio/hdradio_hdproducts.htm

That link was from the local Classical radio station that has been broadcasting "HD Radio" for close to two years now.
see- http://www.wguc.org/hdradio/index.asp

See ya
Tony

 

[norman]

Once you hear HD)) AM Or FM You will never go back to normal AM/FM! I have heard both.

IT IS THE FUTURE OF RADIO!!!!

Norman KB4TXT

Fellow Radio Buffs,

For the few that think that HD)) FM does not sound great, I challenge you to come to Charlotte, NC. With an HD)) radio. Then tune in WFAE & WDAV. On the weekends WFAE has some of the best jazz-blues-weird rock and Echoes on Sunday night. Echoes on HD)) FM. WOW! you have got to here it.
WDAV has some of the best classical you have ever heard. You can here even the most twip, yes twip, of the bow on a cello.

I don't care if you live less than 2km from the tower. HD)) sounds as if you are in the room at the station!

What I want to see come down the pipe line is an portable HD)) unit. Like the walkman type of units. Radio Shack has an AM/FM headset that they sale under their trade name that goes around your ears. IF it could be made to receive HD)) radio and to have a small FM antt on the side that would be a great boost to the world of radio.

Yes I am one of those radios nuts that took an satellite radio, made a belt for it. With a harness for holding the antennas. It worked great.

Norman
KB4TXT

 

[pdxsam]

No, fed regs require the main channel to be the 48kbps simulcast of the FM. You can then put a second signal up and no one is using anything but a 48kbps signal for the second HD Channel at this point. You then have enough for some data and a very low bandwidth 3rd channel - which sounds good enough for traffic reports, weather or low quality of that nature - certainly not close to music.

Gotcha. I knew there was a 96k in there.. but I couldn't find any reference to that being 96 complete or 96 after primary signal. Thanks for the clearup!.

I installed my HD Radio yesterday but haven't had a chance to drive and listen.. I hope to do that next weekend!

Sam

 

[tvdxer]

I'm very nervous about HD Radio. It may sound good at a demonstration, but once they do "multicasting" (the current trend) at the rate of 2 or 3 channels per frequency, the quality drops greatly.

My main concern, however, is how badly it impinges on adjacent frequencies. FM DX'ers living in the Northeast have had their hobby severely handicapped in the last three or four years due to adjacent-channel IBOC (or perhaps more accurately, IBAC) hash. DX'ers have modified their radios' filters for years, but eliminating this problem is near impossible, since the IBOC transmission is actually on part of the adjacent channel, at least as far as I know. As the sun sets here in Duluth and WCCO-AM's IBOC is still on, it completely wipes out the distant powerhouses on (either or both) 820 and 840.

If the radio industry wants to be more competitive against satellite radio, perhaps station owners should try to be a bit more creative and innovating in their programming, and actually become local again. Otherwise people will see no advantage of the cookie-cutter corporate-owned terrestrial radio stations over satellite.

 

[Juan]

The biggest problem with HD radio's is it really doesnt work well in large cities.. The signal bounces off of very large buildings creating multipath interferance issues.. Hd radio works fine in the suburbs though

 

[norman]

If the radio industry wants to be more competitive against satellite radio, perhaps station owners should try to be a bit more creative and innovating in their programming, and actually become local again. Otherwise people will see no advantage of the cookie-cutter corporate-owned terrestrial radio stations over satellite.

Here-Here!!!!

That is one reason I am trying to get into LPFM & LPAM. Yes LPAM. Radio was meant to be local with a few power houses covering the larger midwest. I think that with the LPFM's and SOON LPAM's you will see folks dropping the big boys and going to smaller LPFM's & LPAM's. And don't forget our stations to the far left of the dial. IE-public radio.

AND PUBLIC RADIO STATIONS DO NEED YOUR HELP!

Norman KB4TXT

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

I'm very nervous about HD Radio. It may sound good at a demonstration, but once they do "multicasting" (the current trend) at the rate of 2 or 3 channels per frequency, the quality drops greatly.

Wrong.

Again, you are comparing TV with Radio. Multicasting has no effect on the HD Radio. The main channel is set by Govt Regulation. Its as if the FCC said to TV you are going to broadcast the main HDTV channel at 19.2 Mbps.

Its not going to get chopped up.

The additional frequencies can be divided up - but at this point there is no reason to slice and dice to make it worse - in fact, as I said - in 10-15 years when the analog goes away - you can have 8 full frequencies HD channels of around 300kbps total. Right now they can get about 120kbps in the extended mode.

48kbps on the first and 48 kbps on the second gives you 96. Data and other stuff - plus a low quality 3rd channel for weather, traffic, news etc gets you out to 120kbps.

My main concern, however, is how badly it impinges on adjacent frequencies. FM DX'ers living in the Northeast have had their hobby severely handicapped in the last three or four years due to adjacent-channel IBOC (or perhaps more accurately, IBAC) hash. DX'ers have modified their radios' filters for years, but eliminating this problem is near impossible, since the IBOC transmission is actually on part of the adjacent channel, at least as far as I know. As the sun sets here in Duluth and WCCO-AM's IBOC is still on, it completely wipes out the distant powerhouses on (either or both) 820 and 840.

It only interfers with AMs - and as stated earlier, with in 3 miles of the transmitter up and down 200khz.

Night is a different matter. It destroys the skywave. DXing is a thing of the past. Live with it. There is now something called the internet that you can use to listen to far away stations. Try it sometime.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

The biggest problem with HD radio's is it really doesnt work well in large cities.. The signal bounces off of very large buildings creating multipath interferance issues.. Hd radio works fine in the suburbs though

Not true for multiple reasons.

You might want to do more research.

 

[pdxsam]

The biggest problem with HD radio's is it really doesnt work well in large cities.. The signal bounces off of very large buildings creating multipath interferance issues.. Hd radio works fine in the suburbs though

Incorrect. Driving into downtown Portland this morning.. signals that were multipathed before (anyone who lives around Portland.. the end of the curves on I-5) were held and didn't waver. During my drive through downtown the same held. I got no multipathing and no signal loss. Didn't lose HD once.

 

[tvdxer]

It only interfers with AMs - and as stated earlier, with in 3 miles of the transmitter up and down 200khz.

Night is a different matter. It destroys the skywave. DXing is a thing of the past. Live with it. There is now something called the internet that you can use to listen to far away stations. Try it sometime.

200 kHz?! That would wipe out a huge percentage of the entire AM band. I think you meant 20 kHz.

And FMs? It does interfere with adjacent-channel FMs. In my area, whatever pops up from time to time on 91.5 and 91.1 are wiped out by strong digital noise (a sort of artificial static sound) from our only IBOC station, KUWS 91.3. Now, the FCC does not put stations on adjacent frequencies in the same market, but what if one on the edge of a market with an IBOC on 93.1 wanted to listen to a weaker 93.3 or 92.9 the next market over? It would be impossible.

Skywave is still an important component of AM broadcasting. I'm sure many still listen to programs this way. And by the way, I think the first time I listened to internet radio was in 1997. It was really taking off for a while (c. 2000), but although it is still great, it's marred by copyright restrictions. And nothing can replace the thrill and enjoyment of DXing and logging new stations.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

200 kHz?! That would wipe out a huge percentage of the entire AM band. I think you meant 20 kHz.

Correct. FM is 200khz seperation between odd numbered channels.

And FMs? It does interfere with adjacent-channel FMs. In my area, whatever pops up from time to time on 91.5 and 91.1 are wiped out by strong digital noise (a sort of artificial static sound) from our only IBOC station, KUWS 91.3. Now, the FCC does not put stations on adjacent frequencies in the same market, but what if one on the edge of a market with an IBOC on 93.1 wanted to listen to a weaker 93.3 or 92.9 the next market over? It would be impossible.

To begin with, for decades now, Section 73.207 of the FCC Rules and Regs has stated that adjacent channels for full C's (now known as C1s) is 177km or 110 Miles. Thus you cannot really do that now.

However, it is STILL NOT INTERFERENCE that is not expected. As noted from the above, there was interference prior to IBOC - thus the 110 Miles seperation on adjacent frequencies. If there was no interference with analog, then the stations would not need to be 110 Miles apart.

Furthermore, the IBOC signal on FM doesn't even begin to travel 50 miles from the transmitter (the exception might be if you are on top of a mountain listening to a far away station with the mountain blocking stations from the other direction.

So the arguement is really mute.

Skywave is still an important component of AM broadcasting. I'm sure many still listen to programs this way. And by the way, I think the first time I listened to internet radio was in 1997. It was really taking off for a while (c. 2000), but although it is still great, it's marred by copyright restrictions. And nothing can replace the thrill and enjoyment of DXing and logging new stations.

You will get over it. AM stations do not pay the light bills from DXers. DXers bring them nothing.

There is a reason the stations are licensed to local markets. They are to serve the local market - not the DXer.

Today I demonstrated AM IBOC to a person who's jaws dropped when it kicked in.

For the tens of thousands (and hundreds of thousands) that will hear AM in their local market as clear as FM is today, the loss of few DXers is a small price to pay so those thousands can receive AM as they never have heard it before.

 

[tvdxer]

Correct. FM is 200khz seperation between odd numbered channels.



To begin with, for decades now, Section 73.207 of the FCC Rules and Regs has stated that adjacent channels for full C's (now known as C1s) is 177km or 110 Miles. Thus you cannot really do that now.

However, it is STILL NOT INTERFERENCE that is not expected. As noted from the above, there was interference prior to IBOC - thus the 110 Miles seperation on adjacent frequencies. If there was no interference with analog, then the stations would not need to be 110 Miles apart.

It may be acceptable by the law, but what about to the normal consumer who wants to listen to his or her radio station? My hometown presents a good example - we have two station, one on 94.1, and the other at a somewhat longer distance of 93.9. With good tuning and a decent antenna or location, one can listen to both stations. If 94.1 was to kick in IBOC, 93.9 may be obliterated - even if the IBOC signal itself was too weak to be decoded.

Furthermore, the IBOC signal on FM doesn't even begin to travel 50 miles from the transmitter (the exception might be if you are on top of a mountain listening to a far away station with the mountain blocking stations from the other direction.

If it can't even reach 50 miles, what's the point? In many markets, one needs a coverage range larger than that. Many of our full-power analog FMs are listenable on a car radio, under normal conditions, to at least 70-75 miles. You're not selling me on this..

You will get over it. AM stations do not pay the light bills from DXers. DXers bring them nothing.

There is a reason the stations are licensed to local markets. They are to serve the local market - not the DXer.

Today I demonstrated AM IBOC to a person who's jaws dropped when it kicked in.

For the tens of thousands (and hundreds of thousands) that will hear AM in their local market as clear as FM is today, the loss of few DXers is a small price to pay so those thousands can receive AM as they never have heard it before.

Skywave propagation is a integral feature of the AM band and a great advantage. To put signals incompatible with this form of propagation on the limited number of AM channels would be wasteful, at least in my mind.

Another issue...HD Radio is a closed system, with intellectual property rights held by Ibiquity. Every manufacturer must pay HD Radio a royalty. In my opinion, it would not be wise to adopt a closed system. That would simply end up benefitting a single company. Better to look eastward across the sea and observe some of the open (as far as I know) systems being used in Europe, where DAB rollout seems to have been more successful.

 

[mdovell]

I hope much of this sort of clears up...what I seem to understand is it can make a huge difference in terms of AM but honestly the good AM I listen to is either

1) high powered at night

2) low powered community stations

both come in pretty well...

I hope DX'ing doesn't end because frankly quite a bit would be lost. I'm south of boston and I can easily pick up AM from NYC from maybe a hour or two before sunset to morning. Yes they do of course try to target their local markets but I remember what I heard on 1130am (bloomberg which is THE major business network)

Basically someone called up I think from RI and they asked him if he was listening on Sirus or XM...he replied just a regular radio! The hosts then said sometimes they'd get callers and that the signal could go that far.

At night I can also get 1500am from dc I think some others from NJ and from chicago or detroit...

I think radio and tv should be open systems. The reason why pay services exist is people didn't want censorship and they wanted a clearer sound...

 

[tvdxer]

I think radio and tv should be open systems. The reason why pay services exist is people didn't want censorship and they wanted a clearer sound...

Exactly...that's part of why I think HD Radio is a bad idea. As we move more and more into a digital future, do we want to do so in a fashion that favors open systems and competition, with consumer systems that are able to perform their task with the greatest flexibility, or one that favors closed, propietary ones and (x)opolies and devices tied to a company's system? Take C-Band and Dish Network for example.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

It may be acceptable by the law, but what about to the normal consumer who wants to listen to his or her radio station? My hometown presents a good example - we have two station, one on 94.1, and the other at a somewhat longer distance of 93.9. With good tuning and a decent antenna or location, one can listen to both stations. If 94.1 was to kick in IBOC, 93.9 may be obliterated - even if the IBOC signal itself was too weak to be decoded.

Again, 93.9 is not your local station. Stations are licensed to local market. As noted above, adjacent C to Cs are 110 Miles. That's not exactly a hop, skip and a jump away.

If it can't even reach 50 miles, what's the point? In many markets, one needs a coverage range larger than that. Many of our full-power analog FMs are listenable on a car radio, under normal conditions, to at least 70-75 miles. You're not selling me on this..

Analog will continue out into the other contours past 50 miles. I am not trying to sell you.

You will just have to learn to listen on the net.

Skywave propagation is a integral feature of the AM band and a great advantage. To put signals incompatible with this form of propagation on the limited number of AM channels would be wasteful, at least in my mind.

Luckily, the stations are licensed to serve the local community, not the DXer.

Another issue...HD Radio is a closed system, with intellectual property rights held by Ibiquity. Every manufacturer must pay HD Radio a royalty. In my opinion, it would not be wise to adopt a closed system. That would simply end up benefitting a single company. Better to look eastward across the sea and observe some of the open (as far as I know) systems being used in Europe, where DAB rollout seems to have been more successful.

As Ibiquity has funded the research for over 10 years, good for them. That's the way a this society works.

The European system EUREKA system was thought of 15 years ago and pushed for. The systems in Europe are on same frequency as Military Frequencies here and they refused to give them up or move them.

Thank Bill Clinton.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Exactly...that's part of why I think HD Radio is a bad idea. As we move more and more into a digital future, do we want to do so in a fashion that favors open systems and competition, with consumer systems that are able to perform their task with the greatest flexibility, or one that favors closed, propietary ones and (x)opolies and devices tied to a company's system? Take C-Band and Dish Network for example.

Get real.

All the equipment makers pay is a very small and i do mean VERY SMALL licensing fee. There is nothing that says they have to use the equipment or that equipment.

In fact, the codec in IBOC is also purchased from a 3rd party. That has to paid for as well and the same Codec that XM uses and that Sirius is too cheap to upgrade to.

This is an open system as much as TVs are. TVs must pay a licensing fee to dbx for audio in the older NTSC sets and Dolby in the HDTV sets.

The FCC tried an open system with AM Stereo 25 years ago to let the marketplace decide and it all bombed because there was no standard.

You guys are simply out in left field hunting a demon that doesn't exist.

 

[Juan]

Not true for multiple reasons.

You might want to do more research.

I live in a large city so thats all the research i need