Once you hear HD)) AM Or FM You will never go back to normal AM/FM

[Juan]

Incorrect. Driving into downtown Portland this morning.. signals that were multipathed before (anyone who lives around Portland.. the end of the curves on I-5) were held and didn't waver. During my drive through downtown the same held. I got no multipathing and no signal loss. Didn't lose HD once.

Portland is NOT nyc How big is their tallest building?

 

[pdxsam]

Portland is NOT nyc How big is their tallest building?

Tall buildings are not the only cause of multipath. We're surrounded by hills and mountains all around. The signals bounce like mad here.


Sam

 

[tvdxer]

Get real.

All the equipment makers pay is a very small and i do mean VERY SMALL licensing fee. There is nothing that says they have to use the equipment or that equipment.

In fact, the codec in IBOC is also purchased from a 3rd party. That has to paid for as well and the same Codec that XM uses and that Sirius is too cheap to upgrade to.

This is an open system as much as TVs are. TVs must pay a licensing fee to dbx for audio in the older NTSC sets and Dolby in the HDTV sets.

The FCC tried an open system with AM Stereo 25 years ago to let the marketplace decide and it all bombed because there was no standard.

You guys are simply out in left field hunting a demon that doesn't exist.

Whether the licensing fee is small or large is not the matter....it's simply the fact that a corporation owns the system. And DBX is optional (I don't think AC-3 is though; perhaps a bad part on the FCC's side for choosing that system). HD Radio is the entire system. What if somebody wants to make an open-source decoder or encoder (like this) for HD Radio signals? They will be slammed by royalties, and unable to do so.

The VHF-FM and MW-AM airwaves are the public's, use a single mandated system of modulation/transmission (per each band), and therefore should use a public system. Perhaps the FCC should take some more time investigating digital radio; there is absolutely no need to rush into it. Analog AM and FM serve most customers fine as they are right now, hence the slow and low take-up of HDR. If terrestrial broadcasting is failing, it's not because of a lack of choice, it's because a lack of good programming. One of the heresies of the day is that digital is always better, and that we must rush beyond antiquated analog. In fact, some digital technologies are promising to enrich analog reception, such as Motorola's Symphony chipset.

 

[dlsnyder]

Another issue...HD Radio is a closed system, with intellectual property rights held by Ibiquity. Every manufacturer must pay HD Radio a royalty. In my opinion, it would not be wise to adopt a closed system. That would simply end up benefitting a single company. Better to look eastward across the sea and observe some of the open (as far as I know) systems being used in Europe, where DAB rollout seems to have been more successful.

DAB has not been especially successful due to the high price and scarce availability of the receivers. Hopefully this will not happen with HD Radio, although so far it doesn't look good. They also use the Eureka 147 DAB system in Canada where it has failed to take off for the same reasons it did in Europe. Another factor in Canada, though, is that the frequencies used by the DAB system are in the L-band (1452-1492 Mhz) and are for the most part line of sight. That works OK in an urban setting, but in areas with low population densities it becomes prohibitively expensive to operate.

 

[dlsnyder]

Here is an interesting article about Eureka 147 DAB in the Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_broadcasting

 

[dlsnyder]

Whether the licensing fee is small or large is not the matter....it's simply the fact that a corporation owns the system. And DBX is optional (I don't think AC-3 is though; perhaps a bad part on the FCC's side for choosing that system). HD Radio is the entire system. What if somebody wants to make an open-source decoder or encoder (like this) for HD Radio signals? They will be slammed by royalties, and unable to do so.

The VHF-FM and MW-AM airwaves are the public's, use a single mandated system of modulation/transmission (per each band), and therefore should use a public system. Perhaps the FCC should take some more time investigating digital radio; there is absolutely no need to rush into it. Analog AM and FM serve most customers fine as they are right now, hence the slow and low take-up of HDR. If terrestrial broadcasting is failing, it's not because of a lack of choice, it's because a lack of good programming. One of the heresies of the day is that digital is always better, and that we must rush beyond antiquated analog. In fact, some digital technologies are promising to enrich analog reception, such as Motorola's Symphony chipset.

I think you may be confusing a proprietary standard with conditional access, like that found in DBS or cable TV "scrambled" channels. All of the HD Radio stations are "in the clear" and as far as I know no CA system for a subscription model has been contemplated. If you own an HD Radio receiver you may listen to it as much as you like without any further obligation. The downside is that the standard is now fixed, and any future advances in encoding technology cannot be applied. This is what happend with Eureka 147 which was fixed in 1990 with what is now a very old and inefficient codec.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Whether the licensing fee is small or large is not the matter....it's simply the fact that a corporation owns the system. And DBX is optional (I don't think AC-3 is though; perhaps a bad part on the FCC's side for choosing that system). HD Radio is the entire system. What if somebody wants to make an open-source decoder or encoder (like this) for HD Radio signals? They will be slammed by royalties, and unable to do so.

Not true.

1) DBX is not optional for MTS Stereo NTSC.

2) IBiquity will be happy to license any decoder and the cost would be miniscule - probably not even a $1 per unit.

The VHF-FM and MW-AM airwaves are the public's, use a single mandated system of modulation/transmission (per each band), and therefore should use a public system. Perhaps the FCC should take some more time investigating digital radio; there is absolutely no need to rush into it. Analog AM and FM serve most customers fine as they are right now, hence the slow and low take-up of HDR. If terrestrial broadcasting is failing, it's not because of a lack of choice, it's because a lack of good programming. One of the heresies of the day is that digital is always better, and that we must rush beyond antiquated analog. In fact, some digital technologies are promising to enrich analog reception, such as Motorola's Symphony chipset.

Terrestrial broadcasting is not failing. It is doing better than ever. Get your facts straight.

TV was not failing when it went to Color. TV was not failing when it went to Stereo Audio. TV was not failing when it went Digital.

Your arguments are just insane from the PUBLIC AIRWAVES SERVING A LOCAL COMMUNITY AS REQUIRED BY LAW - THE LICENSE IS NOT TO SERVE THE DXers.

And just fyi - there were 2 systems for Color. One had a 3 color wheel and the other competing system was made by RCA (which also owned NBC) at the time. Guess which system the FCC went with. And do you recall how many years NBC was in color prior to the other networks?

People do get rewarded for their investment in time and research in America. That's the way the system works and that why companies invest in R&D. Otherwise, there would be no reason to invent.

 

[tvdxer]

Not true.

1) DBX is not optional for MTS Stereo NTSC.

2) IBiquity will be happy to license any decoder and the cost would be miniscule - probably not even a $1 per unit.

Please read what I wrote about making an open-source decoder or encoder for an example. These are nearly impossible to license as they are distributed freely. A similar scenario has occurred in the last few years with the owner of the MP3 patents demanding royalties, hence the (accelerated?) development of the Ogg Vorbis format.

And I wasn't speaking of DBX being optional for MTS....I was talking about it being optional for a TV. A TV does not necessarily need stereo reception.

Terrestrial broadcasting is not failing. It is doing better than ever. Get your facts straight.

TV was not failing when it went to Color. TV was not failing when it went to Stereo Audio. TV was not failing when it went Digital.

Your arguments are just insane from the PUBLIC AIRWAVES SERVING A LOCAL COMMUNITY AS REQUIRED BY LAW - THE LICENSE IS NOT TO SERVE THE DXers.

And just fyi - there were 2 systems for Color. One had a 3 color wheel and the other competing system was made by RCA (which also owned NBC) at the time. Guess which system the FCC went with. And do you recall how many years NBC was in color prior to the other networks?

People do get rewarded for their investment in time and research in America. That's the way the system works and that why companies invest in R&D. Otherwise, there would be no reason to invent.

I shouldn't have said "failing", but I've heard many speak of the industry with gloom and doom, as though satellite and other forms of media will kill it off. I doubt this is happening, or will happen, but I'm simply using an example of a complaint.

Invention certainly should be rewarded, but in my opinion, granting a company sole propietary rights to digital radio in the U.S. is somewhat akin to corporate welfare. Standards such as digital radio should be open.

I don't know why you put in the color example.

 

[KimmiKat]

Another reason HD Radio needs more work is it causes interference to adjacent channels and it causes issues with some amatuer radio bands due to hermonics.

Exactly...that's part of why I think HD Radio is a bad idea. As we move more and more into a digital future, do we want to do so in a fashion that favors open systems and competition, with consumer systems that are able to perform their task with the greatest flexibility, or one that favors closed, propietary ones and (x)opolies and devices tied to a company's system? Take C-Band and Dish Network for example.

 

[KimmiKat]

It does interfere with adjacent freqs. In our area we have several stations next to each other and any channel running the digital stuff does oblitorate reception of adjacent channels.

As for anologue, I don't expect it to go away for some time. There's too many radios that would be useless, a lot more then TVs.

Wrong.

Again, you are comparing TV with Radio. Multicasting has no effect on the HD Radio. The main channel is set by Govt Regulation. Its as if the FCC said to TV you are going to broadcast the main HDTV channel at 19.2 Mbps.

Its not going to get chopped up.

The additional frequencies can be divided up - but at this point there is no reason to slice and dice to make it worse - in fact, as I said - in 10-15 years when the analog goes away - you can have 8 full frequencies HD channels of around 300kbps total. Right now they can get about 120kbps in the extended mode.

48kbps on the first and 48 kbps on the second gives you 96. Data and other stuff - plus a low quality 3rd channel for weather, traffic, news etc gets you out to 120kbps.




It only interfers with AMs - and as stated earlier, with in 3 miles of the transmitter up and down 200khz.

Night is a different matter. It destroys the skywave. DXing is a thing of the past. Live with it. There is now something called the internet that you can use to listen to far away stations. Try it sometime.

 

[dlsnyder]

I am not sure of this but I don't think there is any federal mandate for radio stations to convert over to all digital by a certain date. TV stations are being made to do this in order to recover some broadcast spectrum and "reallocate" it to the highest bidder. There is no such plan for broadcast radio and broadcasters are free to use digital or not as they choose for the forseeable future. The hope is that they will eventually all switch over because operating efficiencies are gained when a station operates in all digital mode. I am not sure if the FCC would even allow a radio station to go all digital under current rules.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

I don't know why you put in the color example.

Because of the 2 options for Color TV, one by GE, one by RCA - The FCC went with the RCA system.

Someone had to invent the system and IBuiqity spent the money, so yes, they should get the royalty, just as other inventors have done.

And I wasn't speaking of DBX being optional for MTS....I was talking about it being optional for a TV. A TV does not necessarily need stereo reception.

No TV will work without Dolby Digital inside it or in a converter box attached to it after 1Q 2009.

A TV WILL need that as well after that point.

I guess we should not have done that either.

Fact is, this train is already rolling and all your ill informed arguments are not going to derail it.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

I am not sure of this but I don't think there is any federal mandate for radio stations to convert over to all digital by a certain date. TV stations are being made to do this in order to recover some broadcast spectrum and "reallocate" it to the highest bidder. There is no such plan for broadcast radio and broadcasters are free to use digital or not as they choose for the forseeable future. The hope is that they will eventually all switch over because operating efficiencies are gained when a station operates in all digital mode. I am not sure if the FCC would even allow a radio station to go all digital under current rules.

There is no mandate as they are not swapping frequencies, but the FCC has been involved in the HD Radio process for 16+ years. They all know the long term plans - there has never been any secret to it.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

I am not sure of this but I don't think there is any federal mandate for radio stations to convert over to all digital by a certain date. TV stations are being made to do this in order to recover some broadcast spectrum and "reallocate" it to the highest bidder. There is no such plan for broadcast radio and broadcasters are free to use digital or not as they choose for the forseeable future. The hope is that they will eventually all switch over because operating efficiencies are gained when a station operates in all digital mode. I am not sure if the FCC would even allow a radio station to go all digital under current rules.

There is no mandate as they are not swapping frequencies, but the FCC has been involved in the HD Radio process for 16+ years. They all know the long term plans - there has never been any secret to it.

The FCC is all for this as it will put more formats on the air.

 

[tvdxer]

Because of the 2 options for Color TV, one by GE, one by RCA - The FCC went with the RCA system.

Someone had to invent the system and IBuiqity spent the money, so yes, they should get the royalty, just as other inventors have done.

Simply inventing a system does not entitle one to have it become the mandated national standard.

No TV will work without Dolby Digital inside it or in a converter box attached to it after 1Q 2009.

A TV WILL need that as well after that point.

I guess we should not have done that either.

Fact is, this train is already rolling and all your ill informed arguments are not going to derail it.

That is unfortunate that they chose a closed standard. Although many TV stations also transmit MPEG audio streams.

It's undeniable that we are moving into a digital future....but let's hope it is an open one, not one subject to government and corporate control.

 

[tvdxer]

It does interfere with adjacent freqs. In our area we have several stations next to each other and any channel running the digital stuff does oblitorate reception of adjacent channels.

As for anologue, I don't expect it to go away for some time. There's too many radios that would be useless, a lot more then TVs.

I don't anticipate an analog shut-off until at least 2020. That's my guess.

The big difference between TV and radio is that most TV's today are connected to some external source (cable or satellite), while radio tuners are virtually always not.

 

[tvdxer]

If you want to see an example of the ill effects of IBOC, look at this bandscan:

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/fmscan.html

And compare it to one archived from just five years ago:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010616201433/http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/fmscan.html

Much of his dial has went from one filled with numerous stations from varying distances to a digital hiss wasteland in less than half a decade.

 

[mdovell]

Because of the 2 options for Color TV, one by GE, one by RCA - The FCC went with the RCA system.

Someone had to invent the system and IBuiqity spent the money, so yes, they should get the royalty, just as other inventors have done.



No TV will work without Dolby Digital inside it or in a converter box attached to it after 1Q 2009.

A TV WILL need that as well after that point.

I guess we should not have done that either.

Fact is, this train is already rolling and all your ill informed arguments are not going to derail it.

Not sure on the dolby digital thing although I think thats fairly common on things to the point where it really isn't advertised. there's the hdtv switchoff in 2009 when analog turns off but converter boxes aren't that hard to find and even then they should be built into tv's around 2007...

If anyone gets a surprise when it turns off I hardly think it's justified given all the notice given...that and congress already signed off on a tax credit pretty much to buy a converter box anyway..

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Not sure on the dolby digital thing although I think thats fairly common on things to the point where it really isn't advertised. there's the hdtv switchoff in 2009 when analog turns off but converter boxes aren't that hard to find and even then they should be built into tv's around 2007...

If anyone gets a surprise when it turns off I hardly think it's justified given all the notice given...that and congress already signed off on a tax credit pretty much to buy a converter box anyway..

Yes, dolby circuitry and licensing is needed for EVERY TV AND CONVERTOR BOX to receive DTV. It IS the system and you cannot operate a ATSC TV without it -as well as pay them a fee for every set/box.

 

[norman]

Folks Calm Down....

Folks Calm Down!!

Weither you like it or not, FM/AM HD)) sounds great! With or without the talking heads. I live near Charlotte NC. WDAV & WFAE both are HD)). I have heard them both.

THEY SOUND UNGODLY IN HD)) !!!

You can hear every little sound that's on the CD. Or every little sound on the down load from NPR & PRI.

Talk radio sound's great allso.

So quit the mud slinging & enjoy the HD)) Radio !

Norman
KB4TXT