w5 & dsr 410

[Corrado]

I remember we discussed this in the past but...

I really don't understand why they can't or won't authorize a box from elsewhere. I realize that there may have been some old outstanding PPV or acct. balance from the past. But, the odds of getting that paid are nil anyhow. They should look toward the future and reactivate subs for new owners. Why blame the perfectly good hardware for actions of prior owners.

 

[truckracer]

maybe they have to reflash the 410's with new software to work with hits and w5.
Possibly the starchoice maps etc would not allow a c-band map download to occur.

 

[melgarga]

I suspected as much, but I cant help but question the logic. Perhaps it is a proprietary HW mod and/or proprietary FW re-flash, but if there is other usable DC II stuff available out there, it would seem 'good for biz' to authorize anything that would catch a signal. They cant be making much on the resale of used irds, the $$$ is in the programming. Outside of a standard guarantee not to be DOA, I suspect your on your on for HW support/repair, as it should be in this genre. Even if the pofit is 100% [no cost to them] there are a finite number of units, so once the supply is exhausted then what? Makes one question the longevity of the service. Done properly, this alternate SSP could do some real damage to the pie pan providers' market share. If Echo/Kudelski ever secure their signal, as they keep promising to do, I invision a swelling in subs to some type of pay tv service. The tried and true HW is a good thing, the old school business acumin could cause this potentially wonderful program to die a premature death.
As for outstanding balance, how is that even possible on Head End Subbers or anyone for that matter these days? No pay, no monthly authorize, "the checks in the mail" dont cut it. Even so, as stated, the only way to even come close to re- couping any loss on the ird is to put it back in service. They could always flag the # with 'prepay only' status for say the 1st year

 

[skitheberks]

That is a good point about the supply of these 410 units. What happens if they run out and you own one that breaks? Perhaps we are all "beta" users of the service????

 

[badreligionnc]

I am still very happy with my dsr410 setup. I use the timers on the 410 and a Phillips dvr and have plenty of recorded content available all the time. The picture quality beats Dish's sd and the price beats everyone! The deluxe package contains all of my favorite channels.

 

[mikekohl]

Each DSR-410 that Skyvision sells has been individually checked out and cleared for past ownership and subscription issues. Part of the very reasonable price that they get for these units goes towards the expense of individual receiver verification and approval. Motorola and all subscription companies have quite complicated contractual agreements that forbid use of one company's receiver on another provider's system. New receivers are typically sold below cost by programming providers, hoping to break even and make a modest profit through the use of minimum initial subscription requirements. These contracts protect them from unscrupulous or otherwise financially irresponsible parties grabbing units below cost, running up some unpaid programming charges, and reselling for a profit. A few customers in the past have slipped under the wire while viewing pay-per-view programming, and not being connected to a telephone line for verification of billing. All such viewing is registered in the receiver's memory, ready to be "called in" whenever the receiver physically has a chance to do so. Lax security might allow a certain dollar amount to be ran up in PPV charges (let's say 50 dollars or so) before preventing further PPV access after reaching that limit. If all of this has happened to a receiver, and the customer never connects to a phone line before discontinuing service and then selling the now-used receiver, those charges may show up in an audit. Written policies in contracts with Motorola are meant to nip these situations in the bud, like it or not.

If you want to participate in buying programming through Skyvision and SRL's Programming Center with a DSR-410, you must have a unit that has gone through the screening process. It must be purchased either from Skyvision, or one of their authorized agents (we can take your order for DSR-410 receivers).

 

[melgarga]

Thank you Mike for chiming in to help clairify some of the 'back-story' questions. To be clear, I doubt you will find anyone complaining about the price of the irds or the value of the programming. AFAIC, it is impossible to beat. I dont believe that was anyone's point. What little dealings I've had with the big M commercially [NBFM com equipment], I can certainly attest to there corporate 'our way or no way' mentality. I can sympathise with them and protecting themselves from the
"unscrupulous or otherwise financially irresponsible parties". Sadly it is likely that from their view, it would cost more to set up a system to clear unpaid balances that they would re-coop from it so why bother. Unfortunately 'balance due' is one of the facts of being involved as a service provider on the retail level. A very modest rewrite of the FW controlling PPVs would stop that cold. As for programming packages the standard no pay no see should cover the rest. Why Motorola is even in this at the SSP level is beyond me. The service theives aren't hurting Motorola or any other mfgr, or am I missing something? If a given programming service takes the hit [balance due] in order to sell a pre paid years worth of programming, wouldn't or at least shouldn't that be their call, not the manufacturer?
Some questions on the cotractural arrangments- Would it be possible for any other manufacturer to buy or otherwise obtain a license to decrypt DC II and sub that unit to the same programming content available via 4DTV? Does Motorola OWN the programming? What about this DSR410 package? That's HITS right? No HITS programming is recieved by anyone unless it's via a Motorola product?
I know Motorola is old school when it comes to their engineering, and for the most part, that's a good thing, you'll be hard pressed to find more rugged built stuff, but batteries for memory backup, in this day of technology, give me a break! Channel maps? VC I is long gone, so should be the thought process of that era. If JoeBlow FTA manufacturer were allowed to produce a product that could DVB + DC II, I believe C Band and its supporters would be around for a VERY long time. A feature to make it able to port the signal to an HD decoder device would all but guarantee future consumer level market shares. Motorola could come into this century with the rest of us and put some such item out themselves. I'm pretty sure I wouldnt be their only customer.
Thanks again for your input on this subject. Your insight and knowledge on this is much appreciated. :
One more quick one, reguarding a question in a previous post of mine, the free DC II channels in the rest of the C band spectrum, have to be mapped correct? Will that happen? Should be irrelevant either way to the Skyvision right, or did I miss something there as well?
thanks again for your comments,
mel

 

[mikekohl]

Anyone that has followed recent announcements about Motorola planning to eliminate even more engineering and sales jobs will probably come to the conclusion that 4DTV and Digicipher 2 related products are not at the center of their attention. In the past, only Channel Master had the $$$ and chutzpah to license the Videocipher II module for inclusion in their receivers under the Channel Master name. Motorola simply wanted too much money for anyone else to consider investing in this delivery system, and it was one of the factors that accelerated the demise of the old C-band industry. Create a monopoly, refuse to deal with competition on a reasonable basis, and basically ignore any practical business plan to keep business going in this decade. If it was not for Star Choice, there would be very little call for Digicipher 2 hardware at this point.

Skyvision and Satellite Receivers Ltd have done a huge amount of negotiating in order to create exclusive packages that allow the sale of signals from the Comcast Headend In The Sky (HITS) datastream. Behind every agreement lurks Motorola, and contracts about the use of their hardware and the mechanism to map and keep signals on the satellite. It's their game, and the long term unknown is how dedicated HITS will be on a long term basis. Inexpensive 2nd owner hardware from Motorola and cost effective antennas (Fortec) with C-band LNBFs allow pretty reasonable entry back into the 105-West C-band delivery system. I would encourage anyone that wants American cable programming, especially movie channels, to consider using this system. If the numbers are enough to use every 2nd hand receiver out there, perhaps there will be incentive to negotiate the manufacture of NEW receivers specifically for the HITS system. Only new customers can bring things to that level, and sitting on the fence speculating is not part of the solution to resurrecting this relic of C-band.
The picture quality is far better than what DISH Network and DirecTV are offering, and there is no long term commitment. Channels such as HBO can be had without the strings of getting a bunch of other channels that you do not want. HBO has been very good to us this week, with replays of classic George Carlin concerts from their library, dating back to 1978. Other channels that may be difficult to acquire without a DISH or DirecTV long term commitment are also available, including American Life TV (Time Tunnel and things from the 60s), TV Land, BBC America, Sci-Fi Channel, several flavors of MTV and VH-1, and even the Fuse music channel (descended from Much Music). A number of channels are included that were never for sale on the old analog VC2 system---and only previously available through cable or the 2 little monsters. Look into the DSR-410 seriously if you want some options not otherwise available.

 

[mikekohl]

More answers....I had mentioned serious negotiating having to be done in order to create the programming packages now offered with the DSR-410 system. A number of parties and unusual factors enter into the complexities of getting things into a saleable system, and it's not just hardware. The satellite service providers have their own interests to protect, and the programmers themselves also have issues with how their signals are delivered and sold. Each channel probably has an individual contract about its distribution---where it can be sold, and how it can be packaged. In a nutshell, things are as good as they have ever been for number of channels available, and continuing negotiations are likely to increase your choices in the future. Mapping of the DSR-410 is completely separate from the DSR-905 standalone units, or any of the 4DTV receivers.
Since the DSR-410 in this system is strictly for use on the 105 West satellite, any DC2 channels on other satellites are irrevelevant to this discussion. You've got to go back to how the original 4DTV system is configured, and concern yourself with how channels are mapped for use on other Motorola receivers. Either it's available or it is not, and the ability to get things right is in Motorola's hands.

 

[tvropro]

What will be nice is if because of this project C band numbers go up. This can only be good for getting more services and possibly Motorola modifying the newer Starchoice receivers so we can get the megapipe feed's. This would open up all kind of doors for us again. Like Mike says support the HITS/ SKYVISION/ SRL project. The picture on the Hits SD feeds are much better than the LSD and prices with the nitch channels is way below LSD & cable. If a few more basic channels were offered to us with HITS this would be the icing on the cake. If they ever decide to modify the new Starchoice recievers to work with HITS this would open up HD also on W5.

Just say NO to the LSD and Cable and say YES to the DSR-410

 

[melgarga]

Perhaps I am guilty of a bit of fence sitting, but I still have a few months left on my pizza pan delivery system contract, and view double subbing pretty silly. I cant say I have a mass of faith in the longeviety, considering the restrictive/uncompromising nature of the DC II gods. I have no problem believing Motorola's stand is just as Mike described. I have no investment in HD at this point, but many folks do, and some of the 'potential' subbers I've tried to get onboard are waist deep in their HD stuff, and cant see going back to crummy old SD. Sadly it's a sign of the times. Guess, I'll be one of the holdouts, like I am with OTA analog for now..........lol
The really screwy things are the narrow-mindedness about using only a specific model DC II box, and not mapping anything DC II that can be gotten in the clear if mapped. Then again Motorola doesnt care what I think about it, or any end user of their stuff for that matter. They dont have to. I cant help but wonder what, if any, would be a significant number of subs under the current structure it would take to generate this incentive for a NEW nextgen ird for this service. That of course is a rhetorical question, but as tvropro pointed out, an HD offering is almost mandatory for any chance as a successful SSP these days. Do it at SD prices and I could just about guarantee a surge in subs, even with the dish being comparitively big.
The likleyhood of finding a SC box in my neck of the woods is slim to none, but I do have a Voom. Maybe the Ku to C band flip mod and a new fw download would fix me up, should the need arise........lets not forget the maps........
Mike, your comments on channel maps imply the maps are sourced, or at least done with the blessing of big M. Presuming that to be the case, there in lies the answer to why the maps will be as they are - "Because We Can" . All things considered, it seems to be a miracle that this deal was even brokerable. It would be nice if HITS got tired of M's BS and dumped them cold for a more amicable vendor, unfortunately their reguard for the enduser has been much like Motorola's attitude. Tagging C band dishs big and ugly wasnt Rupert and Charlie's biggest market advantage to kill off C band at the consumer level, it was caring, or at least putting in the effort to appear to care about their customers.
I am going to do this DSR410 thing. It is still a GOOD deal reguardless of the perceived restrictions. A brochure detailing the the program would be handy in promoting this venture. I would sure do what I could to print 'em up and pass them around.
....."Revenge of the BUDs. Pizza Pans beware......comming to an entertaintment center near you!"

 

[rv1pop]

I well remember the slogan on the invoice The Boeing Company got from "M" for thousands of new tracking radios. It was, "You can buy better, but you can not pay more."

 

[melgarga]

I well remember the slogan on the invoice The Boeing Company got from "M" for thousands of new tracking radios. It was, "You can buy better, but you can not pay more."

LMAO...... yeah, that sounds about like them. They have the trunking system markets pretty well sewed up too. Not that it's a better system, but in many cases was the 1st in place, and companies bawk at the expense of rendering their high dollar Motorola equipment usless by changing to any one elses' system. Motorola knows that too, hence the ridiculus price tags on ther equipment. I wouldnt be surprized to learn Motorola coined the term PROPRIETARY .
Time will tell on this brave venture by Sky/SRL and who ever else is involved. Motorola doesnt compete, they dominate, and they dont have that luxury in this market of home SSP. I suspect the survival of this and all consumer level C band subs will hinge heavily on mfgr support for the current [SD] and future [HD] platforms.
We can always hope...........

 

[Corrado]

Also along these lines of thought, I feel it's important for the C band enthusiast to keep a sub going. We need to show support for this type of programming if we want it to last.

I like to think as a BUD as Big Useful Dish, nothing ugly about it.

 

[mikekohl]

We have links with hardware and programming information for the DSR-410,
on the Global Communications website, at www.global-cm.net

 

[truckracer]

Good write up Mike.
I agree totally. The pizza pan companies have brainwashed people who have little or no knowledge about tv delivery into thinking "they have the best" when in fact they don't.
They may have the "most" but no the "best".

Picture quantity over picture quality.

 

[melgarga]

Also along these lines of thought, I feel it's important for the C band enthusiast to keep a sub going. We need to show support for this type of programming if we want it to last.

I like to think as a BUD as Big Useful Dish, nothing ugly about it.

Good write up Mike.
I agree totally. The pizza pan companies have brainwashed people who have little or no knowledge about tv delivery into thinking "they have the best" when in fact they don't.
They may have the "most" but no the "best".

Picture quantity over picture quality.

That term is straight out of Rupert's and Charlie's marketing handbook. AFAIC, they were never ugly, and were in fact a type of status symbol, at least in the beginning. How many times did ya'll hear back then "Wow, can ya get HBO on that thing?" You cant really blame the DSS clan, much like Microsoft, they saw a lucrative market,[TVRO] that no one was really intrested in expanding much less defending the territory, and exploited it. All hail capitalism, it doesnt have to be good as long as it's better that what your used to getting.
Mike, are you a re-seller or just promoting the program? Just curious. I'm in, and I'm going to go out on a limb and bring at least one for sure in, possibly two others I know that arent stuck in HD mode. If this thing flops in a year, I doubt I'll ever hear the end of it from them...........lol.
If it benifits you, and all other aspects are equal, seems the right thing for members here that are going to sub this service to do is go thru a board sponsor.

 

[mikekohl]

We have an understanding with Skyvision that allows us to promote and take orders for hardware such as their DSR-410. Those orders are then given to Skyvision to ship from their warehouse. You are charged the same price as anyone using the Skyvision catalog or website, but we get a commission as an independent sales agent. Everybody wins!

 

[melgarga]

Cool! Sounds like a plan. Get a sweet deal and support a site sponsor. Your site shows an option not listed on theirs. IRD + LNB only. IOW, whats the total HW + S&H for just the two. I could get by with running the polar-rotor with the GI 450 like I do now, but I expect I'll put up a dedicated fixed dish so I can still play with TFTA without disrupting the 'natives', if you know what I mean........lol
Saudon was looking into offering a nextgen V-box that supported polar-rotors, or at least that's what I thought I read in another thread. Still two remotes, but it's gotta be better than keeping that old GI powered up spinning the ol KWH meter needlessly and consuming space in the EC.
Guess it's time to get started reconditioning one of those old Unimeshs I dragged in.

 

[sistersinhim]

What does it mean to "sub"? I have the 920 and am thinking of switching to the 410 for my W5. The subscription prices seem to be better. How do you all feel?