first time set-up

[vixens]

Hi Raphael,

Yes, I can remember you very well. We started to talk here 6 years ago; before I had moved to Belize.

Here is the story:
By co-incidence I have found an installation for a well functioning Directv set-up: 99W, 101W, 103W on a 2.4m dish.
The installer charge him an "arm and leg" US$8500. So I took photos and thought I might be able to figure that out by myself.
The owner does not have much of an understanding. It was fully installed and the 2.4m dish brought into Belize from Mexico.

The owner was told that some dishes do not work with KA band, therefore it was difficult to find him a dish.
You can see in the pics that he is using some homemade sat dish 2.4m or a serial dish which was repaired with fiberglass.

Will my Prodelin 2.4m offset work for KA Band ?

Manuals and Instructions do not mention Ka band but just Ku band.

Unfortunately, I have not found a valid signal for the 101W Ku band, though this should be easy.
I'll have to find me a large umbrella and first accomplish this.

Thanks, wolfgang

p.s. I could do a set-up with 3 dishes: 1.8m for 101W, the 2.4m for 99W Ku and I could also use the other 2.4m (I am currently using for Dish 119W) for 103W Ku.
I certainly will need to order a AIM meter. Or ?

* Will the 2.4m Prodelin also work for Ku ?
* His set-up is for an HR24 SWM receiver with 21V power inserter but I have a HR22 (non SWM but B-converter). Any problem ?

 

[twizt3dsist3r]

good luck combining all those signals, weve talked about this before, Im gonna talk with my sup about mdu setups, I know how to get around 119, but the two ka birds are harder to pick up off separate dishes. without having 101 and 99 on the same dish.

Im thinking there may be hardware for mdu setups that may or may not help.

 

[vixens]

If I red well you might be suffering this @ 101 W where you lock all even but some odd are missing.....what happens here is DirecTV 4S carries Even transponders and DirecTV 8 carries odd transponders
?as you are using a high gain antenna you have to share it's gain and aim between two satellites in order to achieve all even and all odd so you will have to weaken a bit your even levels to acquire more odd levels....

Today I purchased a large sun-umbrella and if weather permits I will have a few hours to play around to find the 101W and hopefully verify it.

If I look at the tp readings taped on video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_QnaxdjZew (spot: 3,4,7,11,12,15,18,19,23,26,27,28,31)
and assume that the zeros would be most likely the Spot Beams
it does not compare at all: http://www.lyngsat.com/SES-1-and-DirecTV-4S-8.html (spot: 4,12,18,20,26,28)

There is no way that I would get a reading on tp20 as it is a spot beam for the San Francisco area: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?position=259

That leads me to believe that my HR22 shows another satellite. Correct ?

Wolfgang

 

[Rafaelccs]

good luck combining all those signals, weve talked about this before, Im gonna talk with my sup about mdu setups, I know how to get around 119, but the two ka birds are harder to pick up off separate dishes. without having 101 and 99 on the same dish.

Im thinking there may be hardware for mdu setups that may or may not help.

Check my post:

down conversion (LNB's):

Voltage / Tone	Satellite	Transponders	Frequency on coax cable
18 VDC / 0 KHz	99 W	2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24	250 MHz to 750 MHz	CATV
18 VDC / 0 KHz	101 W	2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32	950 MHz to 1450 MHz	L- Band
18 VDC / 0 KHz	103 W	2,4,6	1680 MHz to 2150 MHz	L- Band
13 VDC / 0 KHz	99 W	1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,19,21,23	250 MHz to 750 MHz	CATV
13 VDC / 0 KHz	101 W	1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31	950 MHz to 1450 MHz	L- Band
13 VDC / 0 KHz	103 W	1,3,5	1680 MHz to 2150 MHz	L- Band
18 VDC / 22 KHz	103 W	2,4,6,8,10,12,16,18,20,22,24	250 MHz to 750 MHz	CATV
18 VDC / 22 KHz	110 W & 119 W	110 W: 8,10,12 / 119 W: 22,24,26,28,30,32	950 MHz to 1450 MHz	L- Band
18 VDC / 22 KHz	103 W	4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24	1680 MHz to 2150 MHz	L- Band
13 VDC / 22 KHz	103 W	1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23	250 MHz to 750 MHz	CATV
13 VDC / 22 KHz	119 W	23,25,27,29,31	950 MHz to 1450 MHz	L- Band
13 VDC / 22 KHz	103 W	3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23	1680 MHz to 2150 MHz	L- Band

If you understood well the frequency plan, we need to ask ourselves these questions:

How to combine catv with L - Band? easy a Diplexer...perfect but there's a catch, you need to locate a power inserter to feed the LNB.
so let's say in some way the person managed to combine 99 W (CATV) with 101 W with a Diplexer and a separate power supply for the CATV section or 99 W.

as you could observe 103 W has portions in upper frequency of L - Band there is no commercial device to combine 950 MHz - 1450 MHz with 1680 MHz - 2150 MHz you need to pay a special manufacturer to custom make a band pass filter
so you can combine and also you have the issue of powering the LNBf section that is receiving a specific bird out of an orbital slot.....

The LNB's needs to be tricked to use only the Ka portion of the 99W of one triple LNB you have to insert 18 VDC power so it stays in even transponders,
after that you need to extract only the Ka portion or 250 MHz to 750 MHz this could be done with a diplexer.

You can use the 18 VDC of the switch to power the Eagle aspen DTV 32+ for 101 W and get even transponders combined with other diplexer.

Do the same for odd or 13 VDC. For the other satellites or orbital slots your power inserter not only needs 18 VDC or 13 VDC bit it need a tone generator (22 KHz).
after all that you'll be missing:

103 W (1680 MHz to 2150 MHz) odd & even or 13 VDC and 18 VDC
103 W (1680 MHz to 2150 MHZ) odd & Even with 22 KHz tone

I would like to see those Ka levels....the picture you show there looks like a home made 1.8 m off set fed antenna......ka is much more difficult to achieve with poor antennas or not accurate efficient surfaces....
The person should be very close to the US (Northern part of Mexico, probably Jamaica, DR, Puerto Rico and probably you might have a shot in Belize) but no way southern that that.....specially with that kind of antenna.

The thing gets difficult not only because Ka is so weak or has very low spill over in fringe areas, but when using larger antennas the antenna boresight is smaller because the gain is higher.
In other words sharing the antennas surface is difficult when it has more gain (size) you have to be within or close to the satellites target to share the antennas gain, this can't be done when you are deep in fringe and require high gain
to achieve required locking levels.

If I red well you might be suffering this @ 101 W where you lock all even but some odd are missing.....what happens here is DirecTV 4S carries Even transponders and DirecTV 8 carries odd transponders
?as you are using a high gain antenna you have to share it's gain and aim between two satellites in order to achieve all even and all odd so you will have to weaken a bit your even levels to acquire more odd levels....

 

[Rafaelccs]

Hi Raphael,

Yes, I can remember you very well. We started to talk here 6 years ago; before I had moved to Belize.

Here is the story:
By co-incidence I have found an installation for a well functioning Directv set-up: 99W, 101W, 103W on a 2.4m dish.
The installer charge him an "arm and leg" US$8500. So I took photos and thought I might be able to figure that out by myself.
The owner does not have much of an understanding. It was fully installed and the 2.4m dish brought into Belize from Mexico.

The owner was told that some dishes do not work with KA band, therefore it was difficult to find him a dish.
You can see in the pics that he is using some homemade sat dish 2.4m or a serial dish which was repaired with fiberglass.

Will my Prodelin 2.4m offset work for KA Band ?

Manuals and Instructions do not mention Ka band but just Ku band.

Unfortunately, I have not found a valid signal for the 101W Ku band, though this should be easy.
I'll have to find me a large umbrella and first accomplish this.

Thanks, wolfgang

p.s. I could do a set-up with 3 dishes: 1.8m for 101W, the 2.4m for 99W Ku and I could also use the other 2.4m (I am currently using for Dish 119W) for 103W Ku.
I certainly will need to order a AIM meter. Or ?

* Will the 2.4m Prodelin also work for Ku ?
* His set-up is for an HR24 SWM receiver with 21V power inserter but I have a HR22 (non SWM but B-converter). Any problem ?

Before we can even state this is possible, could you post your friends levels out of 99W, 103W and 101W also your friend is located in Belize also?
?

 

[vixens]

He is not my friend but I know him now a little. He lives nearby.
I will see if he lets me run a the set-up with signal strength.

I have for sure switched through the channels and it seems all or a majority of HD channels come in nicely on his HR24 SWM receiver. This proves that he receives (at least large portions) of 99W and 103W.

thanks !

 

[vixens]

another question:

I am using a 2.4 m Prodelin Type 243 Ku Band Antenna (2 pcs) e.g. http://www.satcomresources.com/Skyw...4M-Ku-Band-Tx-Rx-Antenna?sc=8&category=487197

they also offer a special Ka Band dish: http://www.satcomresources.com/SATC...M-4-piece-Ka-Band-Antenna?sc=8&category=94786

Can I assume that the actual reflector is the same ?
Or are there differences in the inside of the reflector, meaning that Ka requires a different mesh/material for the inside ?

If there is a difference my Prodelin 243 might not even reflect KA signals correctly.

thanks !

 

[Rafaelccs]

another question:
Can I assume that the actual reflector is the same ?
Or are there differences in the inside of the reflector, meaning that Ka requires a different mesh/material for the inside ?

If there is a difference my Prodelin 243 might not even reflect KA signals correctly.

thanks !

Wavelength on Ka is even smaller than Ku...so yes the mesh needs to match that!
in any case if the guy of Mexico got it working with a copy of any of the main manufacturers
you MUST have more chance using any original antenna made of recognized manufacturer....

This is why I like solid surface aluminum instead of fiber glass / injected plastic mold (mesh / micro mesh inside).

 

[vixens]

So you think the regular standard Prodelin Ka dish should work fine also for Ku band. Correct ?
Are Prodelin (now General Dynamics) off-set dishes mesh inside or solid aluminum ?

I just don't understand that there is such a big price difference.
The Ku dish 2.4m was quoted with ca. $800 while the Ka dish 2.4m was much more pricier.

thanks !

 

[Rafaelccs]

What I think is that if the guy indeed has the thing working with Ku Ka 99/101/103 with a poor quality fiber glass copy
anyone with in the same range - location using a know brand has more chance.....I have to see the thing working and then state it.....

The thing with smaller wavelengths is that they need very efficient surfaces, so standards on manufacturing are more expensive.
To explain more about frequencies:
The FCC modified and standardized the Ka band frequency usage for satellite operators and set the downlink frequencies to 18.3 – 18.8 GHz and 19.7 – 20.2 GHz
DirecTV then gave them letters:

Ka A-band 19.7-20.2GHz (Upper band).
Ka B-band 18.3-18.8GHz (Lower band).

But the reality is that under ITU designation standards, names have a very slight difference. These radio frequencies, SHF (Super High Frequency) also called microwave band in the range of 3 GHz to 30 GHz. Are then sub designated in radar band as: S, C, X, Ku, K, Ka.

By frequency:

Band	GHz	Wavelength (cm)
L	1 to 2	30 - 15
S	2 to 4	15 - 7.5
C	4 to 8	7.5 - 3.75
X	8 to 12	3.75 - 2.5
Ku (Kurz - under)	12 to 18	2.5 - 1.6
K (Kurz)	18 to 26.5	1.6 - 1.1
Ka (Kurz - Above)	26.5 to 40	1.1 - 0.75

As you can see, The Prodelin Antenna that is manufactured under Ka Standards will work with Ka or 26.5 to 40 GHz
Reality is that FCC's Ka band given for satellite communications is really in the K band or 18 to 26.5 GHz
For these reasons a Ku band antenna is probably in the limit to receive K band.

All fiber glass / plastic injected antennas will have a mesh or micro mesh.
Solid antennas with aluminum sheets will never use fiber over them or plastic, most likely aluminum or metal ribs giving
shape and curvature.

 

[vixens]

Today I got a few hours in.

I moved the 2.4 meter to the West and reached 110W and 119W. Though both satellites are not reachable for Directv in my location -- the dish size would have to be extremely large-- but I could confirm with my Dish box that I had reached the right location.
footprints: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?position=259

With my special compass I can aim through a line and read the exact Azimuth quite precisely.
I moved the dish back to what I believe is the 101W for Directv and I am getting the same readings as before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_QnaxdjZew

I have also tried 3 different LNBs, two standard (Cal Amp, Eagle DTV32+) and the Slimline.
Same readings but no connect.

I guess I will have to get a AIM meter . . . don't see any other way.

The guy with the functioning 99/101/103 system was not home . . on vacation in the US.
As soon as he returns I will film his set transponder numbers in the set-up.

Thanks, Wolfgang

 

[texasbrit]

Well your signal levels are very confusing because you are using the wrong settings. Look at the 110 and 119 signals in your video. They are actually the same signals you are showing from 101, all the signals are coming from the same satellite. That's because you actually have a round dish with 2lnb, not an 18x20, and when your receiver asks the LNB for 110/119 signals, the LNB does not understand the switching signals and so gives you the "101" signals. You need to set the dish type to 18in round.

Second, on 101 you can expect zero signals on 4, 12, 18, 20, 26 and 28. That's because those are spotbeams pointed at different cities in the US for locals and you won't receive them in your location. That leaves TPs 3, 7,11,15,19,23, 27 and 31 as TPs where you are getting no signal. See the pattern? Not that it tells me why you are missing those TPs, but it gives a clearer representation of what you are missing.

 

[Rafaelccs]

Well your signal levels are very confusing because you are using the wrong settings. Look at the 110 and 119 signals in your video. They are actually the same signals you are showing from 101, all the signals are coming from the same satellite. That's because you actually have a round dish with 2lnb, not an 18x20, and when your receiver asks the LNB for 110/119 signals, the LNB does not understand the switching signals and so gives you the "101" signals. You need to set the dish type to 18in round.

Second, on 101 you can expect zero signals on 4, 12, 18, 20, 26 and 28. That's because those are spotbeams pointed at different cities in the US for locals and you won't receive them in your location. That leaves TPs 3, 7,11,15,19,23, 27 and 31 as TPs where you are getting no signal. See the pattern? Not that it tells me why you are missing those TPs, but it gives a clearer representation of what you are missing.

Agreed, just to add try using the Dtv 32+ (Aspen eagle) and set up your ird to round as suggested.....then post your readings....
One thing is clear, if you get 101W you have to get 110W and 119 W now don't worry at all for 110W because it's been used entirely for DirecTV Puerto Rico service since December 15...
Other thing if you get Dishnetwork from 119W you must get Directv 22 thru 32 (there seems to be some spot beams there too).

 

[vixens]

The foot print for 110 and 119W Directv is too small to reach Belize.
I know the 101W does come in nicely on a 1.8m (6 foot) dish and I am using a 2.4 (8 foot) dish:
http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?position=259

 

[vixens]

Second, on 101 you can expect zero signals on 4, 12, 18, 20, 26 and 28. That's because those are spotbeams pointed at different cities in the US for locals and you won't receive them in your location. That leaves TPs 3, 7,11,15,19,23, 27 and 31 as TPs where you are getting no signal. See the pattern? Not that it tells me why you are missing those TPs, but it gives a clearer representation of what you are missing.

Yes, you are completely right.
But what other satellite would be near/around 101W position and a Directv receiver would show signals ?
Shaw Direct 107 W ?

 

[Rafaelccs]

The foot print for 110 and 119W Directv is too small to reach Belize. I know the 101W does come in nicely on a 1.8m (6 foot) dish and I am using a 2.4 (8 foot) dish: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?position=259

I know the person that maintains sat beam, he used to be a regular in DBSForums, I know as a fact that you can't trust 100% , as I have posted many times before, no one goes with a vessel and a spectrum analyzer area by area taking readings of the footprint, the EIRP are estimated on the downlink antenna shape and power of the bird...I have found several signals from satellites that in their EIRP's Venezuela doesn't even appear.....so when in fringe trial and error.

 

[vixens]

I am aware of the fact that footprints are not that accurate.
However, 101W for Directv has not change and many people here on the island had it in old times. There is no doubt that 101W will work just fine here in Belize with a 6 foot dish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_QnaxdjZew

I did a check switch on my Dishnetwork 501 receiver, no result.
I also went manually through the satellites and TPs . . . this is not a Dishnetwork signal.

It's not a Shaw Direct signal either . . . at least what I can see on an unactivated receiver.

What satellite could that be giving me excellent tp readings with a (circular, LO Freq 11250) DSS Ku band LNB and a Directv receiver?
Watching the markers on the pole, I am about the same distance East from the 110 as the 110 is from the 119W.

 

[vixens]

on 101 you can expect zero signals on 4, 12, 18, 20, 26 and 28. That's because those are spotbeams pointed at different cities in the US for locals and you won't receive them in your location. That leaves TPs 3, 7,11,15,19,23, 27 and 31 as TPs where you are getting no signal. See the pattern? Not that it tells me why you are missing those TPs, but it gives a clearer representation of what you are missing.

Texasbrit,

Since June I am get signals on --what I believe is the-- 101W on the following transponders (the zeros 0 are for no signal). The second column shows the Lygsat transponder stats from http://www.lyngsat.com/SES-1-and-DirecTV-4S-8.html with the Spot Beams marked in zero.

me Lyngsat 101W

1	1
2	2
0	3
0	spot
5	5
6	6
0	7
8	8
9	9
10	10
0	11
0	spot
13	13
14	14
0	15
16	16
17	17
0	spot
0	19
0	20
21	21
22	22
0	23
24	24
25	25
0	spot
0	27
0	spot
29	29
30	30
0	21
32	32

Giving the above reading:
* The similarity is given very much to believe that I am indeed accurately pointed on Directv 101W
* I am not receiving any spot beams !!!
* In fringe areas it often happens that you get sufficient signal on some/most transponders but not necessarily all transponders
e.g. Dish 119 I am only receiving 4 or 5 transponders but not the entire range of beams. Some come and go, depending on the time of the day. The Dish receiver connects with signal strength 11 and above but does not show a picture on signal 10 or below. For the HR22 this cut off line seems to be at signal strength 50
* Personally I believe it is some receiver connection or cable/switch recognition/Ku receiver/lnb set-up problem.
* It seems that the signal arrives at the receiver but the receiver cannot convert it correctly.

Thanks for your input. Wolfgang

 

[texasbrit]

You are just quoting back what I already posted.

If people in your area are getting reception on all 101 transponders (except spot beams) with your size dish then you are simply not aligned correctly. Larger dishes are much more difficult to align than smaller ones. Just a tiny adjustment can make the difference between seeing transponders and not seeing them.

 

[Rafaelccs]

You are just quoting back what I already posted.

If people in your area are getting reception on all 101 transponders (except spot beams) with your size dish then you are simply not aligned correctly. Larger dishes are much more difficult to align than smaller ones. Just a tiny adjustment can make the difference between seeing transponders and not seeing them.

Once again I will agree, specially if you are using a 2.4 prodelin.
Remember @ orbital slot 101W DirecTV has 3 birds:

101.19W	Dtv4S	S.B.	4,12,18,20,26,28
101.12W	Dtv9S	S.B.
	Dtv9S	CONUS	2,6,8,10,14,16,22,24,30,32
100.88W	Dtv 8	CONUS	1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31

My guess is they're using some spot beam from 4S and other from 9S maybe some CONUS come from one or other but even transponders come from 4S and 9S
?odd transponders come from Dtv 8; they could be beaming double power some transponders therefore you are getting only the odd that are beamed with more power from that bird.....
try pumping up levels with the weak odd and then try to give the aim an average where you lock all over 60% or more.