My answer to Equity Broadcast problems

[walrus1957]

Thought I would share a littel bit of my hobby project. With channels leaving 123W KU, I went whole hog getting my mini C-Band dish project in gear.

I purchased a 1.2 meter GeoSatPro dish from sateliteAV, the C-Band LNB was a dual purchased from this site on the special offer for around $20. I have two motorized 76cm dishes on my garage roof for all my KU band needs. The wife has control of one of them and I the other. We have 4 TV sets hooked up in the house and all run from a Coolsat 5000 receiver. My Coolsat runs both a motorized 76cm dish and the 1.2 meter dish dedicated to C-Band.

The only problem I had to over come was using SG2100 motors, no matter how I configured my set up both motors would move at the same time no matter what the switch matrix was. I purchased two DG 280 motors from Sadouns and they work great, have a diseqc 4x1 ahead of the motors, C-Band to port 1 and KU dish to port 2. Now when I select a C-Band sat only the motor on the 1.2 meter dish moves, and like wise only the KU dish motor moves when a KU band sat is selected. I have the C-Band LNB hooked to two TVs, one upstairs and one in the family room.

I have found NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox and the CW on C-band as well as a few others such as "This TV and My TV". Also get WHT, STO the Sportsmans and the Soundtrack Channel. A few in the clear Movie channels as well as other great programing come in. Enough extra channels to make up for the loss of channels originally broadcast by Equity Broadcasting.

The C-Band satellites I currently have viewable channels from are in order by satellite degrees: 55.5W, 58W, 72W, 87W, 89W, 91W 95W, 97W, 99W, 101W, 107.3W, 111.1W, 113.0W, 121.0W, 123W, 125W, 127W, 131W, 133W, 135W, 137W and 139W. Can't test below 55.5W as there are trees in the way.

I tried to get channels from 103W but could not, also wanted AMGTV on 97W, but found out by a answer to a post by Iceberg that the channel is now on TP 3991H on 97W and only two degrees off of 99W broadcasting WHT at 4000H, Iceberg stated that WHT over powers and interfers with AMG. If I recall Iceberg could not even get a blip from AMG using a six foot dish, hope they move the channel to a different transpondor.

The mini C-Band has proven to be very stable. Two days ago it poured rain, lost all my KU channels but all the C-Band channels came in strong and I did not even notice a dip in signal quality. Most C-Bnad signals are above 90% quality on the 1.2 meter dish with the exception of about 10% that come in around 69% quality level on the Coolsat 5000 receiver. I think being located near Omaha has its advantage for strong C-Band signal. I really would like to get channels off 103W C-Band, I see on Lyngsat that there is a planned luanch to replace this satellite, hopefully the new C-Band sat for 103W will have a bit more power. I would not say I get 100% of the channels being broadcast on c-band that the Coolsat can decode for viewing but 90% of them from each satellite that are DVB in the clear.

Attached is the photos of the two 76cm dishes mounted on the garage and the mini C-band in the side yard. I plan on moving the dish further toward the back yard and permenately mounting. Currently I have it mounted to my home made tripod, but have to move it weekly to mow. One thing I found out is after you get the lnb and scaler set perfectly that the dish becomes very stable. I can move the dish any where in the yard and re-align it back to the arc in less than 10 minutes for C-Band.

One last note to make about scaler rings and mini C-band, the conical scalers work better with dishes 76cm to 1 meter in size, the flat scaler out performs on the 1.2 meter dish. Dish geometry in play, 1.2 meter and larger must act more like a prime focus. I think the flat scaler over illuminates the smaller dishes.

 

[hwm]

Thanks for a very informative post. I have been considering adding C-band to my setup since the good channels started dropping from G18. You answered many questions.

 

[Blindowl1234]

Walrus,
Yeah this summer I too added Cband to my list. I've got the same 6 footer that Ice has. I love it. I'm slowly working on an old 8 footer. I might get bored someday and try a mini bud. 103W is pretty good....RFD is hard for me to keep locked in. Blind

 

[Babadem]

Excellent! I noticed, you used the regular scalar ring (Not coned scalar) and your able to get all those channels on C-Band? WOW!! Was "Baby First TV" on the list of channels received? I also like the post (stand) you used for the 1.2M dish. Did you fabricate it yourself?:up




Edited: Walrus1957, saw your write-ups on Scalar and Mount on your post.

 

[Anole]

- I like it:

I thought you threatened to post some pictures of your custom scalar a while back.
I recently did a search, and couldn't find it.
What are your current thoughts on rolling your own?

One last note to make about scaler rings and mini C-band, the conical scalers work better with dishes 76cm to 1 meter in size, the flat scaler out performs on the 1.2 meter dish. Dish geometry in play, 1.2 meter and larger must act more like a prime focus. I think the flat scaler over illuminates the smaller dishes.

Was this one of the commercial scalars?

The GeoSatPro 1.2m dish has a shorter focal length (F/D ratio) than some other dishes of its size.
It's possible the conical scalar is not letting the LNB see the entire dish.
So, anyone with a Fortec Star or Primestar 1.2m dish, give both a try and report your findings.

And anyone experimenting with a flat scalar, heed ACradio's suggestion, below:
ACradio and flat scalar tune-up on mini-bud:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/c-band-...g-c-band-my-1-2-meter-dish-2.html#post1735458

Offset Scalar performance comparison:
Communication Satellite


PS: after looking at the 1.2m dish and stand close up (beautiful stand!), I have a suggestion.
What about putting in some paving stones on the yard.?.
You could dig down below the grass, pour some sand, and set the stones level with the ground.
That way, mowing over them would be a breeze!
Might need some grass killer to prevent growth under the stones, and possibly some plastic, too.
I suppose there is a metal edging you could insert vertically around each stone, into the soil to prevent grass under-growth....

Or, you know... maybe just dig one hole and plant that pole! Yea, that's the best way.
... unless you are renting . . .

 

[walrus1957]

Wow, a lot of questions and feed back. Try to answer in order.

Blindowl1234- Sounds like 103W is difficult to receive even with a six foot dish. All I was after on it was RFDTV, they use to have it on 121W, then moved to 103.

Babaden- Yes "baby first" is on my list at 121 west and in the clear, but do not watch it. Baby First and Soundtrack Channel are my weaker ones on that satellite and come in at roughly 70%, Sportsmans, STO and TVW are around 96% signal quality. The scalar I am using for the 1.2 meter is flat and not the conical. I tried my home made version, and comercial conical on this dish but the flat scaler out performs.

Anole- The flat scaler came with the GeoSatPro C2 dual lnb. Out performs the other scalers about 5% on signal quality. It is opposite on the 1 meter and smaller dishes where a conical scaler works best. I think you are correct about f/d ratio.

I am stuck with a limit to how many dishes and size can be placed at home by the little woman in charge. She wants me to take down the two small DN dishes off the garage the way it is, be lucky if she allows me to concrete a pole in the side yard for the 1.2 meter dish. Up to a few weeks ago I had it stored in the garage, just had to slide it out and pull it up against the concrete lip of the garage floor when I wanted C-band. I could do this in five seconds and bring it back in again at night with out having to worry about the dish alignment. But then I was limited to 55.5W to 127W. Put it in the side yard to catch broadcasts from 131-139W C-band, but now it takes about ten minutes each time I set it back up. Ten minutes may seem a relative short time, but still a hazzel, have to do this at least once a week when I mow.

I paid $90 for the 1.2 meter dish, $20 for the dual C-band lnb and about $80 for the motor so I say it was worth the cost for the channels I can get. The KU dishes on the garage roof cost me $160 each including dish, motor and LNB.

 

[Mr Tony]

Blindowl1234- Sounds like 103W is difficult to receive even with a six foot dish. All I was after on it was RFDTV, they use to have it on 121W, then moved to 103.

RFD TV HD is on 121

But ever since they put up 105W C-Band 103 has been hindered on the smaller dishes

 

[Anole]

- snappy come-back:

I am stuck with a limit to how many dishes and size can be placed at home by the little woman in charge.
She wants me to take down the two small DN dishes off the garage the way it is, be lucky if she allows me to concrete a pole in the side yard for the 1.2 meter dish.

Wife complains about too many dishes, Cruzin has snappy answer:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-fta-discussion/183269-what-dish.html#post1912403


I think you need to let it slip that your SatGuy friends are plannin' to drop by and bring you a twelve foot BUD ! -

 

[Look Up]

Walrus,
Really nice mini C-band setup you have there. I've been generally discouraged by other posts about the idea of a small C-band dish, but you've inspired me to look into it seriously. I've been pretty happy with my small-dish Ku band attempts here in Colorado - I'm hopeful that as you mentioned, being in a fairly sweet spot on the reception map will help with C-band as well.​

 

[walrus1957]

Look Up-

I have had real good results with the 1.2 meter dish for C-Band. The results I had with a 1 meter offset dish and C-Band were pretty impressive as well, I attached pics from last years setup of the 1 meter offset dish with BSC621-2 cband lnb, also a close up of one of my home made conical scaler ring configurations. The screen shots were taken using the two ring configuration, adding a third ring increased the signal quality another 10 to 15% but made the dish unstable for a motoized configuration.

I have screen shots taken last year showing the signal quality level. One photo was of National Geograpic on 91W, next was WHT on 99W and the third would be Sports Time Ohio on 121W. The last screen shot should peak your interest as it is of signal received from 55.5 W using a 76cm offset dish!

I can only imagine what a 1.8 meter offset dish would do, but I know the wife would not allow it in the yard.

 

[walrus1957]

Found some pics that I sized last year taken when I was experimenting with C-Band on a 1 meter dish. Includes one of the three ring scalers I made and a clear photo of the improved LNB support bracket I finally came up with to attach the lnb. Just used a large hose clamp around the curved bracket and lnb to attach. It helps to have the receiver and tv monitor right at the dish when testing.

Using the three ring scaler and the 1 meter dish I could get the same signal results as the 1.2 meter dish, but it made the dish react squirrely when you motorized it, seemed like every sat was at a different elevation and several transponders where off even on the same satellite. I concluded the three ring version focused the beam so tight to a pin point that made it difficult to use with a motorized system. The 1.2 meter dish works great with the flat scaler when motorized, tracks all the tps and sats with good quality. I do get a little bit of interverence from adjacent sats on a few but it isn't bad. One problem transponder would be that of AMGTV on 97W with bleed over from WHT on 99W, but this will be a problem even with a 6 foot dish.

All said I am very happy with the 1.2 meter dish and GeoSat C2 (dual) lnb for a mini C-Band setup using the Coolsat 5000. Makes loosing the channels from Equity seem hardly noticeable.

 

[1ADAM12]

Added one larger cone to your design on a 90 cm motorized dish and it works great. Sats from 55 to 121. When KU gets rained out the C band stuff is still good.

 

[walrus1957]

Added one larger cone to your design on a 90 cm motorized dish and it works great. Sats from 55 to 121. When KU gets rained out the C band stuff is still good.

90cm seems to work as good as the 1 meter. I believe the prior photos of the improved lnb mounting bracket where actually placed on one of my spare 76cm dishes and I was getting about 6 C-Band sats using that dish, 55.5W 91W 99W and 121W for sure that I recall, had up to 4 cones maximum at one time on that dish and best quality was around 94% on WHT, STO and a few channels from 55.5W.

And you are right about the rain fade, a few days back lost all my KU during a down pour but did not even see a drop in signal quality on C-Band. The biggest draw back I can see using an offset dish for C-Band is it allows interference from adjacent satellites if the transponders on both sats are relatively the same frequency. Where the deep dish prime focus has a narrow beam width cutting out the broadcasts from adjacent satellites.

Curious how many others are using a mini C setup for there total C-Band viewing. It really isn't that difficult to setup, no more than installing a KU band dish.

How do you like my C-Band lnb rain cover (sandwich bag)? Poor mans soultion to inclimate weather-ha ha!

 

[1ADAM12]

Great job of fabricating that lnbf holder for the C/ku lnbf, genious!

I set the fourth ring back about 10 mm and found another guy that mounted the cones on a 65mm X 60 mm cylinder for adjusting. On the 90 mm I'm using a BSC-421 (13K) and the inner cone sets up about 10 mm forward of the lnbf throat.

Tunning is interesting, there is no signal and then it pops up to 68%SQ. I use a compromise setting for the channels I most watch. If more people would try your design there would be some iteresting posts here.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[walrus1957]

Great job of fabricating that lnbf holder for the C/ku lnbf, genious!

I set the fourth ring back about 10 mm and found another guy that mounted the cones on a 65mm X 60 mm cylinder for adjusting. On the 90 mm I'm using a BSC-421 (13K) and the inner cone sets up about 10 mm forward of the lnbf throat.

Tunning is interesting, there is no signal and then it pops up to 68%SQ. I use a compromise setting for the channels I most watch. If more people would try your design there would be some iteresting posts here.

Thanks for sharing.

I must be getting old, miss the days of all the engineering and experimentation now that I found a workable solution to my C-Band mini project needs. Spent hours doing math, physics and research developing a working scaler for the smaller dishes, of course everything down on paper had to be tweaked like you found out. A snip here and there of the rings and a slight movement here or there to comprimize for channels on different satellites. Different layers of cones, cone sizes and flares. THAT WAS THE FUN OF IT!

A few months back on Galaxy 19 at 97W KU Linear on radio station "Access America" the "FTA Show" did a several hour long segment on the mini C-Band project and brought up the fact of home made scalers, and the sucess of many using small offset dishes to receive C-Band programing. This was a great airing of mini C-Band projects across the country and the world. The FTA Show was initiated by Richard Buckner and is a story of its own, it is aired weekly on this channel and I entice the followers of this thread to check the listings of (Access America Radio) to see when the next "FTA SHOW" airing is. You will be pleasently surprized of all the great information disemenated and guests they have on this program. I think I might give them a call and see if they will do another show covering mini C-Band projects, I will even over to be a guest on the program if they do so. There is so much to talk about when it comes to this subject, alot of it very technical but very interesting. They have a call in segment so that anyone can call and ask specific questions of the quests and host.

You have to love this stuff, doing what a few years ago everyone said was impossible. However the newer C-Band sats have a lot more broadcast power than what they did 10 years ago!

 

[1ADAM12]

I missed that show you were on, it would have been very insightful. Yes, I hope that they do ask you to comment on the Mini Bud again. I know that there are a bunch of people on this forum that would be interested.

I wanted more information about your background and how you evolved the design.

If you posted the dimensions for the flat rings in this thread it would be helpful for those wanting to build their own.

I found that Aluminum roof flashing is inexpensive and very springy so it forms nice cones. I used super glue that worked well but I did manage to glue myself to a cone or two.

Please post if your on the show again. I don't want to miss that show.

 

[Mikhel]

Try 116.8ºW, there's a channel broadcasting movies all day long (XTime), sometimes they're dubbed in spanish but most of the time they're in english with spanish subs, a lot of good recent movies ;-).

Also the edusat channels from time to time broadcast BBC/Discovery Channel/NatGeo documentaries in english with spanish subs. And if you happen to like Baseball and Boxing, 113ºW has the mexican baseball leagues (both the summer and the soon to begin winter league) and the azteca's channels have boxing every saturday, the big PPV events are delayed 1-2 hours and a couple of channels from Paraguay have the WWE PPVs delayed 3 hours the same day of the event .

Cheers

Mike

 

[walrus1957]

I wanted more information about your background and how you evolved the design.

If you posted the dimensions for the flat rings in this thread it would be helpful for those wanting to build their own.

I found that Aluminum roof flashing is inexpensive and very springy so it forms nice cones. I used super glue that worked well but I did manage to glue myself to a cone or two.

Please post if your on the show again. I don't want to miss that show.

My background is in radio, radar and satellite technologies with an Electronics Engineering degree. I did a lot of physics research on feed horn and wave guide design and priciples. There is a good basic read about feed horn design you can down load from the web authored by Paul Wade, and if memory serves me correct entitled "W1GHz", just google it.

Aluminum roof flashing is a great choice for fabricating the rings, I used aluminum tape purchased at ACE Hardware instead of glue to secure the rings.

My testing notebook with all my drawings and specs is misplaced at my vacation home somewhere so I do not have any specs for ring sizes handy. If you have reference to any of my original design specs or joted any of the info down please go ahead and post here or simply post your ring demensions. If and when I find my notebook I will post the specifications of all my designs later in the C-Band section of the forum.

A conical scaler is a must for dishes smaller than 1.2 meters, home made versions are cost effective. But for me using the 1.2 meter dish the flat scaler is the way to go.

 

[Inno]

Nice job.........and I thought I was doing good with my 10' dish going from 58° to 139°........Although I am using an older LNBF, actually nothing modern about my setup except for the FTA receiver.
I like that your garage door faces south, that would make testing much easier. Mine unfortunately faces north and to the south of the garage is nothing but trees! I have to go clear across the yard to get a decent view of the arc. I guess if I did not have the room I do, (or if WAF became an issue) I would be forced into something like you have created. Again, very nice work and very impressive numbers! It is truly an inspiration.
Thanks for sharing all that.

 

[1ADAM12]

......
A conical scaler is a must for dishes smaller than 1.2 meters, home made versions are cost effective. But for me using the 1.2 meter dish the flat scaler is the way to go.

I have all the Wade publications on feedhorns and his software.

Flat Scalar for 1.2 offset dish was new information to me. I have a 1.18 m prime focus dish that is about 5" deep. It works best with the flat scalar.

I've saved most of your posts from other sites so i'll save you looking up the info. on construction dimensions.

Small cone- 90 mm ID 140 mm OD
Medium cone- 90 mm ID 200 mm OD
Large cone- 90 mm ID 260 mm OD
Slip Cylinder- 65 mm ID X 60 MM long
Cones spaced 15 mm apart