If the problem I am having with trying to access RTP International on AMC4 at 101.0W at 12033 -- which everything says is available -- would I be better off trying to do this with a different receiver, based on the information in post #48? All of you have been very helpful to me, a newbie, and I appreciate any and all of your assistance.
Problem with new setup, please help
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Sounds like it would be a worthwhile experiment, if you're getting other channels on the target satellite but not the channel you are seeking. It's sad the only way most of us can get any real information on these newer receivers is to BUY one first and try it. I think a lot of them are designed, produced and sold with non-legal purpose in mind. They don't need good tuners to pick up the higher-powered, DBS satellites.
stevevalandra,
I was testing that Sonicview receiver with ACWxRadar, and it did appear to receive signal qualities on some transponders at a much lower level than the Coolsat 5000 receiver. So yes to answer your question about trying a different receiver. But before you purchase another receiver you want to compare apples to apples, and that is compare that channel on the same size dish at a location with the same irradiated footprint for the transponder, and a different model receiver.
For RTP International, I just checked the signal level and quality using my Coolsat receiver. I get transpoonder 12.033H SR 3003 in at 65% signal level and 95% quality. When I select the channel the quality level is 95%.
Now for a comparison, I use the Coolsat 5000 receiver, I am using the Winegard DS2076 76cm/31" dish, the Invacom QPH-031 LNB, an SG2100 motor, and my location is 40 miles west of Omaha NE. The satellite footprint EIRP (dBW) of AMC 4 KU broadcast for my location is approxamately 49.
If you want to try a comparison, provide me your dish size, lnb model, receiver model, your approxamate location, and a channel you do get in but shows a weak quality level. I can then check my receiver and compare the difference, however you also must understand that the quality level is not calculated the same on different receivers. The Coolsat 5000 pixelates some where between 62 and 66% on KU linear dependent on the FEC.
turbosat,
You are so right about the newer receivers being produced and sold for non-legal purposes. The newer units do not seem to work very well with TRUE FTA.
I love your statement about; "It's sad the only way most of us can get any real information on these newer receivers is to BUY one first and try it." I am thinking it would be benificial for all memebers if we started a thread of comparing satellite reception between different brands and models of receivers. It would have to be an apples to apples comparison, meaning the dish sizes, lnbs, and area satellite broadcast powers would have to be the same, and direct compasion of channels and their quality levels.
Here is my check for you:
Fortec Star Lifetime Classic N.A. @ 93% quality
Qualitv @ 79% quality
Pansat 9200 HD @ 99% quality
These are all from the same:
Fortec Star 1.2m dish
Invacom QPH031 lnbf
Zinwell 4x4 Multi-Switch
going to separate Diseqc Switches and on to each receiver
@ 2:35 pm eastern time
And I'm in the middle of Georgia, just to the left of Macon, if you're going North
Fortec Star Lifetime Classic N.A. @ 93% quality
Qualitv @ 79% quality
Pansat 9200 HD @ 99% quality
These are all from the same:
Fortec Star 1.2m dish
Invacom QPH031 lnbf
Zinwell 4x4 Multi-Switch
going to separate Diseqc Switches and on to each receiver
@ 2:35 pm eastern time
And I'm in the middle of Georgia, just to the left of Macon, if you're going North
voomvoom,
At roughly what % quality on each of your receivers does the picture start to break up with a 3/4 FEC? You should have almost the same dBW as my location for AMC4, but you do have a much larger dish.
I really think the Sonicview 360 has some issues with true FTA KU linear reception. I followed the thread concerning "RTP International" and think he might have problems with his receiver, he should try manual scan of the transponder for that channel. I have found what should be two hot transponders on a satellite using the sonicview. One transponder scans in channels, the other does not and both are showing 65%+ quality. I also witnessed the sonicview scan in and receive channels with quality level as low as 55%. I willl try and get AcWxRadar to hook his sonicview 360 back up and see if he can scan it in.
It can make it very difficult to align a motorized dish if your receiver is unreliable. And that brings us back on topic for this thread.
But your information is still valid for comparison for others using your size dish, lnb and are receiving roughly the same broadcast power from the satellite.
It's not like I write down the signal rates every time I go by a channel? In fact I don't write anything down unless I'm helping someone out, and looking right at it. I know each receiver has a threshhold point where it will break up at, but I don't know what they are? And I really don't have that problem with any of my receivers, except the Qualitv receiver. I only use it for 4:2:2 channels, when necessary, and that's not really that often. It seems like the threshhold on the Qualitv receiver is around 38-40%, but I'm not sure? I have a Pansat 3500 receiver and it's around 30%, but this threshhold is not something I keep up with, or want to? I hardly ever have a problem with threshhold. Even recently when most all were having problems getting the new RTN National Feeds (east & west) on AMC9 ku @ 83.0w, I never had any problem or any drop-outs. So, I don't know what to tell you, sorry I can't be any help with that? And as far as FEC, I have no idea what the FEC is on any of my receivers, except the Pansat 9200 HD receiver, and then only on the S2:8psk channels that require it. Everything else is in AUTO and it doesn't show any FEC. Only the Pansat 9200 HD shows it, and only when I manually use it. If my other receivers have a feature to use a manual FEC (and they certainly could?), I have never used it. So I can't help you with the FEC either, sorry..!!!
Krisman,
Since your longitude is 84.5W, then you have a few choices for your due south satellite.
85W would mathematically be your best satellite as it would be the closest (only 0.5 degrees off). But, I find only one channel that broadcasts anything consistantly and that is the Echostar Satellite Access Ctr. It always displays color bars, a test tone and the telephone numbers to call if you are a broadcaster and want to lease TPs. However, I find that this channel moves around from TP to TP on this sat. The last time that I was looking at this channel it was on TP 12.196 H SR 3.978. As of today 01/21/09, it was on TP 12.188 H SR 3.978.
The fact that it may be relocated from TP to TP makes it less reliable to use for testing the alignment of the dish and tracking the arc. Unfortunately, it appears to be the only channel on 85W AMC 16 that broadcasts 24 hours. All other channels are either feeds or too weak for me to be able to pick up on at my location, with my equipment.
82W Nimiq 2 or 4 may be a good sat to use to help align the dish and motor. There are no FTA channels that you can use, all the channels are subscription channels. But, you can detect the TP signal on 12.253 V SR 20.000 and since this is a circular polarity transmission, it may assist you in getting lined up.
83W AMC 9 has a few FTA channels, including the RTNEAST and RTNWEST national feeds on TP 11.735 H SR 4.430.
87W AMC is a good satellite for a number of FTA channels, including The Patient Channel on TP 11.715 H SR 4.857.
If you can dial in on any of these sats, they will serve to at least get you started. You don't truly have to use the one and only satellite that is due south of you, a few degrees off is acceptable.
As for a satellite signal meter, I have one of those little cheap - in line analog meters that you get FREE (Oh Boy!) with the purchase of some dish or receiver. Like a prize in a box of Cracker Jacks! That is about how good they are, too.
I used it and it can help if you have nothing else to rely upon, but some cheap receivers with the right software are much better.
Personally, I use a SuperBuddy meter manufactured by Applied Instruments. It is a $700 meter, but it can tell you exactly which satellite and which TP you are actually picking up. It can be used world-wide if you download the field guide software for the region. I bought it to set up Internet Access via satellite like Hughes Net and Wild Blue. I am using Wild Blue for my internet access right now.
The most accurate and least expensive meter is a good FTA receiver itself. Some come direct from the factory with software that ID's the satellite you are picking up signal from. There is a quirk or problem with this.
The true FTA satellites usually lease the TPs to numerous different broadcasters. Those broadcasters may transmit their own personal identification information, or possibly nothing at all.
You have to know, in advance, what ID display to look for.
For example, on sat 87W AMC 3, TP 11.736 V with SR 8.333 you will be presented an ID banner of MTA. If you don't know this in advance, you will not realize that you have picked up the signal from 87W AMC3. If you find another TP with good signal level and quality, the ID banner may present something else. It may even be blank or state "UNKNOWN NETWORK".
In cases like this, you need to consult with someone who already has their system set up and aligned who can tell you which TP has a strong signal and what the sat ID banner should be showing you.
I think you will find that it requires a bit more than just pointing the dish in the general direction of a satellite and expecting the signal to come bopping into your living room. You have to utilize several if not many redundant checks to ensure that you are indeed locked into the appropriate satellite signal.
I hope I have been helpful.
AcWxRadar
Gordy
Voomvoom,
From one model receiver to another the threshold percentage of signal quality is just an arbitrary figure. For some receivers its 30% and for others like the Coolsat 5000 it’s somewhere between 63 and 67%. Again this is also dependent of the Forward Error Correction ratio (resent data used to fill in missing bits of the data stream). FEC of 3/4 is just a common broadcast; you can find this information listed for each channel at Lygnsat.
You can see why I asked the questions that I did. If I were to say that I get a specific channel in with 70% signal quality on my Coolsat 5000, and you happen to get the same channel on your Pansat 3500 at 60% quality. Which receiver is the better? The Coolsat threshold is around 67% and the Pansat is roughly 30% according to you.
I never had anything to complain about using the Coolsat 5000 receiver, I also have a Pansat 2700 just find the menu a little difficult to use on the Pansat. When it comes right down to it, you want a receiver that can pull in everything weak and strong, at a reasonable upfront investment. Very difficult at times to compare one box to another, unless everything about the receiver is on the table.
From one model receiver to another the threshold percentage of signal quality is just an arbitrary figure. For some receivers its 30% and for others like the Coolsat 5000 it’s somewhere between 63 and 67%. Again this is also dependent of the Forward Error Correction ratio (resent data used to fill in missing bits of the data stream). FEC of 3/4 is just a common broadcast; you can find this information listed for each channel at Lygnsat.
You can see why I asked the questions that I did. If I were to say that I get a specific channel in with 70% signal quality on my Coolsat 5000, and you happen to get the same channel on your Pansat 3500 at 60% quality. Which receiver is the better? The Coolsat threshold is around 67% and the Pansat is roughly 30% according to you.
I never had anything to complain about using the Coolsat 5000 receiver, I also have a Pansat 2700 just find the menu a little difficult to use on the Pansat. When it comes right down to it, you want a receiver that can pull in everything weak and strong, at a reasonable upfront investment. Very difficult at times to compare one box to another, unless everything about the receiver is on the table.
I also have a Coolsat 5000, and on the question of which is better between it and the Pansat 3500, I don't think either is better than the other one. The Pansat will do some things the Coolsat won't and the Coolsat will do some things the Pansat won't. And they both do some of the same things, only differently. The threshhold's are very different, but they both get the channel solidly, at least mine do, so to me the threshhold is a moot point. In other words, one may show it as 83% and the other may show it at 43%, but who cares, they are both stable and near perfect pictures. So, how can 83% on the Coolsat make it better than the Pansat, or how can 43% on the Pansat make it better than the Coolsat??? It doesn't... and with the FEC, I don't need to know what it is, unless one of my receivers won't get a channel in AUTO. So far, only channels in S2 have done that to me. Regular DVB-S channels, up to now, have always worked in AUTO, so I've never had to use an FEC manual scan to get any of those channels. As I've never needed that info. I don't know what the FEC is for any channel, but if you want to know one for a DVB-S2 channel that I have, I'll be glad to look it up, but if you want to know the FEC of a DVB-S channel, you might as well go to lyngsat to find out, because if I look, all I'll see is AUTO.
I'm not worried about any threshhold, whatever it might be, as I'm not having any threshhold problems. And I don't keep any data on anything, much less the threshhold of any of my receivers. Any threshhold numbers I have already mentioned, were wild guesses, off the top of my head. Generally speaking, when I do come across a threshhold problem. like with my Qualitv receiver, it is usually a weak signal or an alignment problem. If it's an alignment problem, I usually get it fixed. If it's a weak signal, I'm s**t out of luck....
I'm not worried about any threshhold, whatever it might be, as I'm not having any threshhold problems. And I don't keep any data on anything, much less the threshhold of any of my receivers. Any threshhold numbers I have already mentioned, were wild guesses, off the top of my head. Generally speaking, when I do come across a threshhold problem. like with my Qualitv receiver, it is usually a weak signal or an alignment problem. If it's an alignment problem, I usually get it fixed. If it's a weak signal, I'm s**t out of luck....
Voomvoom,
Everything I have read about the Pansat and Coolsat and have personally tested lead me to beleive these are good True FTA receivers, excluding the Coolsat 6100. I have a 6100 model and it now sits in the closet. I also have a DSR920 that I dust off ocasionally and play around with, however it takes me awhile to remember how to manuver around in the menus. And maybe that is half the battle with the newer model receivers coming out now days, just figuring out how to navigate the menus. But still think some boxes really suck for our hobby.
I think the only true way to compare one box to another is to use them on the same dish setup, plug one box in after the other and check the weakest signals to see which boxes can capture and allow viewing of the signal and which ones fail.
You see a lot of people having problems aligning a motorized dish, and sometimes half their problem is the brand of receiver they are using. I also noticed a lot of posts from those wanting to get into this hobby and want recomendations for the best receiver to purchase. Pansat has been on the market for a long time and has the reputation for being a good FTA box. I personally like the Coolsat 5000, but never tested the other boxes.
Like you I really don't care as long as the box and dish I am using gets the programing I want. But I do like challanges, such as setting up C-band on my 1 meter offset dish and fabriacting my own offset scalar for the BCS621 LNB. Its really crazy to see 11 C-band satellites blasting in on this small dish and being able to scan in 300 plus channels. But I am going in looking at this as a hobby, and expect failures and a lot of experimentation. There are those however on a limited budget that can not afford to fail in a poor equipment purchase on their first atempt at FTA, and for some dont have the pateints to deal with experimentation.
Everything I have read about the Pansat and Coolsat and have personally tested lead me to beleive these are good True FTA receivers, excluding the Coolsat 6100. I have a 6100 model and it now sits in the closet. I also have a DSR920 that I dust off ocasionally and play around with, however it takes me awhile to remember how to manuver around in the menus. And maybe that is half the battle with the newer model receivers coming out now days, just figuring out how to navigate the menus. But still think some boxes really suck for our hobby.
I think the only true way to compare one box to another is to use them on the same dish setup, plug one box in after the other and check the weakest signals to see which boxes can capture and allow viewing of the signal and which ones fail.
You see a lot of people having problems aligning a motorized dish, and sometimes half their problem is the brand of receiver they are using. I also noticed a lot of posts from those wanting to get into this hobby and want recomendations for the best receiver to purchase. Pansat has been on the market for a long time and has the reputation for being a good FTA box. I personally like the Coolsat 5000, but never tested the other boxes.
Like you I really don't care as long as the box and dish I am using gets the programing I want. But I do like challanges, such as setting up C-band on my 1 meter offset dish and fabriacting my own offset scalar for the BCS621 LNB. Its really crazy to see 11 C-band satellites blasting in on this small dish and being able to scan in 300 plus channels. But I am going in looking at this as a hobby, and expect failures and a lot of experimentation. There are those however on a limited budget that can not afford to fail in a poor equipment purchase on their first atempt at FTA, and for some dont have the pateints to deal with experimentation.
My take on all this is that if you happen to have two different receivers, set them side by side and test them with the same dish, same cable, same LNBF, same switch (just swap one receiver for the other and test each sat and channel) you will find a correction factor for the signal level meters on both receievers (like comparing Centigrade and Fahrenheit temperature scales). But, one receiver may have a drop out limit that the other may surpass.
I will have to do an experiment with my receivers, those that I have, come warmer weather. I have a signal meter (Applied Instruments Super Buddy) that will read out the actual dBm or dBmv and a reading that shows expected STB % or whatever scale I choose and I should be able to compare this meter's results against any FTA receiver's scale and tell you which receiver has the most accurate scale readings as to signal level and signal quality.
What is a problem is that some receivers (makes) use a totally unique scale. DN SUB receivers use 0-100% and older Direct TV receivers use 0-120% scale. That makes things confusing.
I am quite certain that the Coolsat 5000 agrees fairly well with this meter's readings, but I don't recall which scale I was using on the meter. I will check this come spring so that I may confirm the results. Since the SuperBuddy meter is a calibrated instrument, we can get a good idea of which receiver has the most accurate scale. Then, we can use that receiver as a guide for comparison of the signal level meter indication on all other receivers.
Walrus, please remind me to do this!
AcWxRadar
I will have to do an experiment with my receivers, those that I have, come warmer weather. I have a signal meter (Applied Instruments Super Buddy) that will read out the actual dBm or dBmv and a reading that shows expected STB % or whatever scale I choose and I should be able to compare this meter's results against any FTA receiver's scale and tell you which receiver has the most accurate scale readings as to signal level and signal quality.
What is a problem is that some receivers (makes) use a totally unique scale. DN SUB receivers use 0-100% and older Direct TV receivers use 0-120% scale. That makes things confusing.
I am quite certain that the Coolsat 5000 agrees fairly well with this meter's readings, but I don't recall which scale I was using on the meter. I will check this come spring so that I may confirm the results. Since the SuperBuddy meter is a calibrated instrument, we can get a good idea of which receiver has the most accurate scale. Then, we can use that receiver as a guide for comparison of the signal level meter indication on all other receivers.
Walrus, please remind me to do this!
AcWxRadar
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From someone who has owned somewhere around 20+ FTA receivers some of the meters suck
here is off the top of my head..threshold are on AVERAGE..a lower FEC will stay stable lower and a 7/8 FEC needs alot of signal quality
Fortec....threshold is 40 and reads pretty true
Pansat...threshold is 30-40 depending on box and reads very true. Older models threshold was 30 but newer is 40..my favorite box (1500) for aiming dishes
Coolsat...threshold is 63-64 and most read around 70-73. The meter isnt the best but it works for me. The 5000 I've had for a few years now (3+ for sure)
Coolsat 8000...different then the 4/5/6000 models. Threshold I've kept stable at 20 but the meter is iffy. Likes 99 for some reason regardless of what other boxes show
Visionsat..threshold 30 or so and reads pretty true. Reads lower than the Pansat
some older models
Digiwave/KUsat/microyal...99 all the way for some reason. If it was a 50 on the Pansat or a 99 it showed 99 on the KUsat
Satworks...read very low. Good signal would read 45 or so on the satworks and 30 was the threshold
Viacast..reads low and keeps it stable around 25
Here is a perfect example of the different meters. Sat Av needed some help with testing G19 readings...here are the different results and different receivers
http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-ai...stance-quick-test-win-geosatpro-dvr1100c.html
and mine personally with 2 receivers
http://www.satelliteguys.us/1619695-post17.html
here is off the top of my head..threshold are on AVERAGE..a lower FEC will stay stable lower and a 7/8 FEC needs alot of signal quality
Fortec....threshold is 40 and reads pretty true
Pansat...threshold is 30-40 depending on box and reads very true. Older models threshold was 30 but newer is 40..my favorite box (1500) for aiming dishes
Coolsat...threshold is 63-64 and most read around 70-73. The meter isnt the best but it works for me. The 5000 I've had for a few years now (3+ for sure)
Coolsat 8000...different then the 4/5/6000 models. Threshold I've kept stable at 20 but the meter is iffy. Likes 99 for some reason regardless of what other boxes show
Visionsat..threshold 30 or so and reads pretty true. Reads lower than the Pansat
some older models
Digiwave/KUsat/microyal...99 all the way for some reason. If it was a 50 on the Pansat or a 99 it showed 99 on the KUsat
Satworks...read very low. Good signal would read 45 or so on the satworks and 30 was the threshold
Viacast..reads low and keeps it stable around 25
Here is a perfect example of the different meters. Sat Av needed some help with testing G19 readings...here are the different results and different receivers
http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-ai...stance-quick-test-win-geosatpro-dvr1100c.html
and mine personally with 2 receivers
http://www.satelliteguys.us/1619695-post17.html
Ice,
Thanks for that information! Since you have tested the early Coolsat models (expressly the 5K) and you stated that the threshold was 63-64%, I find that I cannot agree with you more! That is precisely what we are finding with that same model in our applications.
If the signal is a circular polarity (like the NASA channel) then the threshold is higher, about 68-71% roughly.
My previous post, regarding the SuperBuddy Meter will help identify which receiver has the most accurate meter. I believe that the Coolsat 5 and 6K are going to be closest.
I will play with this and let you know the results come warmer weather, unless Walrus talks me into getting out there and checking it before then! LOL
I don't have as many receivers to test as you. I have Coolsat 5Ks, 6100's, Pansat 2700s, Captive works and SonicView 360 premiers. One or two other off brands, too.
Out of this list, I can almost guarantee that the Coolsat is going to have the most accurate meter. I am taking bets on this if anyone is interested! Just kidding!
AcWxRadar
hey there, i was wondering if my longitude is 84.5, if icould set my true south sat at 87w, since i cant get 85w to come in at all. ive been working all day on it. for the life of me, i cant get 85w amc to come in, even with that tp list that iceberg gave. help please
Kinda. What you would do is have the Receiver "drive" the Dish to 87west using USALS.
Then twist the Motor on the Pole.
i did the best i could. it is as close to 0 position as it is going to get and i twisted it until i got 66 quality, the thing is that it fluctuates from 66 to 98 most of the time. i apparantly do not have true usals so this will have to do until i get a coolsat. just making sure what all channels do you guys get from 87w amc 3 i think it is. im getting about 7 of the same guy in different languages
Yes you can. Even though satelite 87W is not truly due south of your position, it is close enough to use to align your motor and dish to the top of the arc. You may select any sateliite within the range of +/- 5 degrees of your legitimate true south position to get started. It may require you to fine tune your dish alignment later, but you will be very close.
This will not be perfect, but you will find the results pleasing as you will be so very close to the alignment with that satellite.
AcWxRadar
alrighty, one more problem. i got inside and pulled up 87w, click go to sat, andi have to go 14 clicks in units of 1 to the west with the motor to get good quality. now i dont want to mess this up and i was going the wrong way with it before. so standing behind the dish, a little to the left or right? i also need it to quit flcikering between 66 and 99 so i can get a good scan from it.
When you say you use usals and then have to go 14 clicks in diseqc control to the west, this is telling me your dish azimuth is off just a little to the east. Go back to usals and select 87W, then move your motor by hand on the pole just a smidgen to the west until you max out the signal (have your TV out at the dish when doing this) then lock the motor to the pole securely. Next flex your dish pan by hand slightly up and down to see which direction improves the signal quality. Then loosen the dish elevation bolts slightly and adjust your dish elevation for maximum quality. This should stabilize the signal.
After you have done this you have aligned the top of the arc for an initial setup. [87W is close enough to true south for you to use as a satellite to align the top of the arc]. When you get to the fine tuning steps of the dish alignment you will be required to go back and recheck the top of the arc alignment. You may get lucky and have to do no other adjustments.
After you get 87W tuned in try for a signal off 123W (Galaxy 18, maybe listed as Galaxy 10R on your receiver) use transponder 11.720, I tested this last weekend on Gordy's Sonicview and know it can pull it in.
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