Terrible First Impressions

[truecrimson]

It depends on the type of quality control (QC) you are talking about.

The good type of QC examines the installation and verifies that all items are installed correctly and that the total system has a good chance of giving dependable service. They also monitor the performance of the installer for both the technical details and customer relationships. Someone will have to bring the installation up to a reasonable standard.

The other type of QC is fraud being perpetrated by the installation company. These QC techs are part of a team that works to avoid paying the installer for the installation. When you combine an unrealistic work load with dispersed routing and equipment shortages it is not hard top find details in the installation that are not technically correct. This produces a justification for withholding some or all of the money from the installer.

Even after the installation is complete they have ways of deducting compensation.

Directv has been too far removed from the installation process to know or care. If you pay your first and subsequent bills you are a happy customer. And you don't care either. You got a FREE installation and the tech is gone.

I have seen good installs and bad ones....even funny ones...but don't recall "tricky" installations.

Joe

You know I never thought about that Joe, but what you say makes sense. I guess it really depends on the motive of the QC guy.

I guess I should explain more about the "tricky" part. Basically there were two issues the 1st installer was worried about. 1: The ground rod is on the opposite end of my house to where the dish needs to be mounted and 2: the slope of my room is very steep and he stated several times the dish could not be mounted over a living space.

The QC guy said it was no problem to run a ground to the other end of my house and suggested it would be in the gutter to keep it hidden. House is about 60' long and he said that length was no problem. To keep the dish from being over a living space he suggested an area in the overhang.

Now the installer put the ground directly below the dish and left it for me to hook up. Which is fine, I can buy another ground rod. He told me the distance was too far to run a ground to the other end of the house. The other thing he did and I think this might be the problem.... the dish is clearly mounted over a living space.

 

[raoul5788]

Putting a dish over a living space or not seems to be a local install company policy. I have heard of them not being allowed, but sometimes there is no choice. If properly installed there should be no problems.

 

[Joe Diamond]

You know I never thought about that Joe, but what you say makes sense. I guess it really depends on the motive of the QC guy.

I guess I should explain more about the "tricky" part. Basically there were two issues the 1st installer was worried about. 1: The ground rod is on the opposite end of my house to where the dish needs to be mounted and 2: the slope of my room is very steep and he stated several times the dish could not be mounted over a living space.

The QC guy said it was no problem to run a ground to the other end of my house and suggested it would be in the gutter to keep it hidden. House is about 60' long and he said that length was no problem. To keep the dish from being over a living space he suggested an area in the overhang.

Now the installer put the ground directly below the dish and left it for me to hook up. Which is fine, I can buy another ground rod. He told me the distance was too far to run a ground to the other end of the house. The other thing he did and I think this might be the problem.... the dish is clearly mounted over a living space.

Ah, the ground thing!

Technically, you do not ever drive another ground rod. Electricians drive ground rods and BACK BOND them to the main ground bond. One for the installer!

Many successful installations are not grounded. Directv is being paid...but failure to ground the system is a QC fail....if they want it to be.....so if the QC guy pushes it he will be the one doing the installation.

The living space thing is a specification slip. The smaller 18" dishes were little problem hanging anywhere. Some did leak due to sloppy technique on the part of the installer but they can be made leak proof.

The larger 5LNB Ka/KU requires more lag bolts and supports (monopoles). Each bolt is a potential leak at sometime. Wind effect on the larger dish can be significant. So mounting on a pole or on the edge of the building starts to look pretty good. The question is...who pays for and or repairs your roof if and when it leaks? The QC guy says go do it. The tech says no...or even worse says yes but screws it up causing a leak.

It can be complicated.

Joe

 

[Liquidforce88]

The QC guy said it was no problem to run a ground to the other end of my house and suggested it would be in the gutter to keep it hidden. House is about 60' long and he said that length was no problem. To keep the dish from being over a living space he suggested an area in the overhang.

This right here tells me the QC guy don't know doo doo. 20' of ground is all that is within Direct specs. Running through a gutter is even worse. I would hate to see what the install would have looked like if he installed it. He probably has never installed a system.

Mounting over a living space has always been viewed as a last possible location. Both Dish and Direct say it is a no no, but both of them expect the install to be completed if there is a LOS from a location over a living space. So you see the put the installer in a no win situation.

The tech leaving the ground to you = you are supposed to have someone install another ground rod and backbound it to the house electric. Sometimes it's the only way to get the system in. Because they really don't care about the install as long as it get's installed and is working. They only care about the install when they want to steal back from the tech.

 

[truecrimson]

This right here tells me the QC guy don't know doo doo. 20' of ground is all that is within Direct specs. Running through a gutter is even worse. I would hate to see what the install would have looked like if he installed it. He probably has never installed a system.

Mounting over a living space has always been viewed as a last possible location. Both Dish and Direct say it is a no no, but both of them expect the install to be completed if there is a LOS from a location over a living space. So you see the put the installer in a no win situation.

The tech leaving the ground to you = you are supposed to have someone install another ground rod and backbound it to the house electric. Sometimes it's the only way to get the system in. Because they really don't care about the install as long as it get's installed and is working. They only care about the install when they want to steal back from the tech.

Not trying to take either side here, but what I understood the QC as wanting was a double line run to the grounding rod. I am no electrician, but I am guessing he means coax and not the ground itself? So that would be less than 20' of actual grounding cable but would consist of about 120' of coax. I maybe totally wrong about that, but that was my impression. Not sure why you would run a "double line" of anything other than coax.

If the dish is ok over a living space, then I don't have a problem with it. There is LOS from both the overhang and the location where he mounted it. Both have a clear view and are only a few feet apart.

The supervisor called me back today to see how everything went. He wants to come out and take a look, so I guess we will see. I just don't want to be in the middle of an installer war. As long as the system works and is installed properly, I am a happy camper.

 

[Joe Diamond]

Not trying to take either side here, but what I understood the QC as wanting was a double line run to the grounding rod. I am no electrician, but I am guessing he means coax and not the ground itself? So that would be less than 20' of actual grounding cable but would consist of about 120' of coax. I maybe totally wrong about that, but that was my impression. Not sure why you would run a "double line" of anything other than coax.

If the dish is ok over a living space, then I don't have a problem with it. There is LOS from both the overhang and the location where he mounted it. Both have a clear view and are only a few feet apart.

The supervisor called me back today to see how everything went. He wants to come out and take a look, so I guess we will see. I just don't want to be in the middle of an installer war. As long as the system works and is installed properly, I am a happy camper.

He was probably talking about "dual cable with ground". There is a small ground wire (14 ga I think) bonded to the two rg6 lines. This is the typical material from the dish to a ground point.

Best practice is to make the dish to ground run as short as possible. Electric code says ten feet from the cable entrance. Directv says twenty is ok. Then install a ground block or multiswitch. Attach the ground wire from the dish and the shortest possible ground jumper to the main electric bond and the grounding post on the fitting body.
The house wire attaches to the output side of the block or switch frame.

The Ka/Ku dishes can require one to four cables; one line for each tuner except for the Single Wire Multiswitch (don't ask) systems.

You can make yourself nuts with grounding discussions. If the QC guy give you any sh*t tell him you insist on the 6 gauge wire back bond that is required and you would hope that "flooded" cable be used since the lines will be underground. Should shut him up.

Your system will work regardless of what they come up with for the ground issue.
Might be interesting to see what the QC guy does.

Joe

 

[cditty]

My mom and dad are on their FOURTH reschedule for an upgrade Direct is making them do. Every time, at the end of the window or an hour later they get a call that the installer can't find the equipment or is tied up. Say what you want, but dish has NEVER done that to me.

They are going to switch if they don't show next time. Older people don't like to be hassled and this has pissed my Mom off.

 

[falkor]

I certainly would have told them to drop dead and move to Dish . That is ridiculous !!

 

[Joe Diamond]

I certainly would have told them to drop dead and move to Dish . That is ridiculous !!

Something must be wrong!

The Directv wonk that stated they do not get into installer payment issues seemed confident he (they) could replace me and thousands like me with more experienced, competent techs who would be glad to work for less.

He sounded so confident...."sorry about your luck sir..."

Joe

 

[stonecold]

Something must be wrong!

The Directv wonk that stated they do not get into installer payment issues seemed confident he (they) could replace me and thousands like me with more experienced, competent techs who would be glad to work for less.

He sounded so confident...."sorry about your luck sir..."

Joe

Joe part of the problem is we cant seem to get the hardware in fast enough so that is our problem ... Not our fault though were more in demand then dish .

It is the HSP though who is at fault though for waiting till the end of the appointment window to call about not having hardware they should be calling first thing in the morning . But that I just what I think they should do .

 

[Joe Diamond]

Joe part of the problem is we cant seem to get the hardware in fast enough so that is our problem ... Not our fault though were more in demand then dish .

It is the HSP though who is at fault though for waiting till the end of the appointment window to call about not having hardware they should be calling first thing in the morning . But that I just what I think they should do .

Stoneman,

I know how that part happens but not how to fix it. As long as the HSP local offices ...and the offices of their subcontractors are allowed to BS about their true capabilities these offices are going to get more work than they can handle with their staff most days.

They get their work in the AM of the day the jobs are scheduled. They want their techs to be knocking on a door at eight AM. That tech could have as many as four AM appointments and maybe another four appointments for the afternoon. The tech can either spend all his time on the phone calling customers and calling the office with ETAs and to close work.No time for tools to be used.

I ran across one group who continually used new techs as a phone man. The idea was that the experienced tech would drive and do the installations. The new guy would be on the phone and watching how the work was done. Who pays for the phone and the phone man was never discussed.

Some HSPs use automated phone messages...outgoing only when they get an idea what work they will have. Few will accept incoming calls. But if they report they cannot staff the jobs that are being sent Directv will find other companies (Alternate Service Providers) to come in and take some of the work. So the HSP chooses to let the customers blow in the wind rather than slow down the work.

My view!

Joe

 

[stonecold]

Stoneman,

I know how that part happens but not how to fix it. As long as the HSP local offices ...and the offices of their subcontractors are allowed to BS about their true capabilities these offices are going to get more work than they can handle with their staff most days.

They get their work in the AM of the day the jobs are scheduled. They want their techs to be knocking on a door at eight AM. That tech could have as many as four AM appointments and maybe another four appointments for the afternoon. The tech can either spend all his time on the phone calling customers and calling the office with ETAs and to close work.No time for tools to be used.

I ran across one group who continually used new techs as a phone man. The idea was that the experienced tech would drive and do the installations. The new guy would be on the phone and watching how the work was done. Who pays for the phone and the phone man was never discussed.

Some HSPs use automated phone messages...outgoing only when they get an idea what work they will have. Few will accept incoming calls. But if they report they cannot staff the jobs that are being sent Directv will find other companies (Alternate Service Providers) to come in and take some of the work. So the HSP chooses to let the customers blow in the wind rather than slow down the work.

My view!

Joe

Joe I am not trying to blame the techs but the HSP them selves

if the HSP doing there job they should know what kind of recievers and how many are on your truck and if they got work orders that need more equipment then you have then they should be dialing your job installing not dialing .

But it clear the HSP fault for letting the installer have work order that he does not have equipment for too.

 

[Joe Diamond]

Joe I am not trying to blame the techs but the HSP them selves

if the HSP doing there job they should know what kind of recievers and how many are on your truck and if they got work orders that need more equipment then you have then they should be dialing your job installing not dialing .

But it clear the HSP fault for letting the installer have work order that he does not have equipment for too.

Yup,

I liked the fulfillment plan. Even though there were problems...DSI lost thousands of boxes! But the customer had all the equipment before the truck roll. The installer was also local to the area and could reschedule with the customer. In the years I did that work I never missed an appointment. The problems were NLOS & a little busted- in-shipping equipment.

The reverse is the HSP manager who just lies to everyone to keep all the balls in the air at once. And it doesn't take many mandatory morning meetings where the message is "NO EQUIPMENT AGAIN TODAY" to fill the parking lot with empty vans. Even in this economy not working is cheaper than eating commuting costs and then not working. Always training new guys is expensive. So there is a problem!

Joe

 

[Lt Disher]

. Not our fault though were more in demand then dish .

And whose fault is it then? If you don't have the equipment, don't schedule the install. Of course it is your fault.

 

[stonecold]

And whose fault is it then? If you don't have the equipment, don't schedule the install. Of course it is your fault.

It is the HSP responsibility to keep us updated on there supply levels they dont do that were kind flying blind.

Basically put all our manufactures are pumping out new receivers asap. they are going out in some cases straight from the factory to the hsp .

Also we have been warning customers in high volume areas about the shortages.


So no it not our fault that were more popular and we are having to push all plants to push out new hd equipment.

 

[falkor]

It is called take the money and run . All they want to do is sell . After that , most will not cancel and they know this . No one cares about the manufacturers . They care about what Directv tells them . Maybe upfront honesty ? Oh , that is probably too drastic .

 

[Lt Disher]

It is the HSP responsibility to keep us updated on there supply levels they dont do that were kind flying blind.

Basically put all our manufactures are pumping out new receivers asap. they are going out in some cases straight from the factory to the hsp .

Also we have been warning customers in high volume areas about the shortages.


So no it not our fault that were more popular and we are having to push all plants to push out new hd equipment.

What a bunch of crap. If you can't control your supply chain, you shouldn't be offering your product for sale. A responsible company might hold off on setting up orders until they actually had the equipment they are trying to sell. It is crap to make people wait take time off work when the company should know that the equipment is not available. Don't try to push it off to HSP, whatever that is. It is Directv that is being order and installed. It is their problem.

 

[Liquidforce88]

It is the HSP responsibility to keep us updated on there supply levels they dont do that were kind flying blind.

Basically put all our manufactures are pumping out new receivers asap. they are going out in some cases straight from the factory to the hsp .

Also we have been warning customers in high volume areas about the shortages.


So no it not our fault that were more popular and we are having to push all plants to push out new hd equipment.

Here is the problem. HSP says we can do this many jobs. Direct just sets up installs untill the Q is full, or over full many times. No consideration of equipment, time frames or anything.

So truck is due to roll in at 3:30 on Wed. But for some reason it does not show up untill 5 on Thursday with 1/2 the equipment. HSP is expecting equipment to due those jobs on Thursday morning, so now they have to scramble to try and get those jobs done. Any HSP will tell you Direct don't care what the reason is, they don't like jobs getting pushed back, even if it is Direct's fault.

 

[stonecold]

What a bunch of crap. If you can't control your supply chain, you shouldn't be offering your product for sale. A responsible company might hold off on setting up orders until they actually had the equipment they are trying to sell. It is crap to make people wait take time off work when the company should know that the equipment is not available. Don't try to push it off to HSP, whatever that is. It is Directv that is being order and installed. It is their problem.

What I am saying is we are a victim of our own success.

they have all our plants poping out new equipment so it can be installed. It kinda of a mixed blessing. But we cant make them make the boxes any faster. If you found a way to reduce the time it takes to fabricate a product or have a keen insight on exactly how we could slow not having enough hardware to shop out then be my guest. I will run it up the flag pole.

 

[falkor]

If you have equipment , use it . Be it older or new . Use what you have and instead of the same crap everyday about " we do not control what receiver you will get . " Tell the truth ! It is not that difficult . Something such as " we may be installing older equipment because the newer equipment is not keeping up with demand " . Not USED equipment . Just an older NEW model in the box . I find it amazing that NO ONE will accept blame here . And I do not mean on this forum . But , ON THIS FORUM , there are plenty of people that refuse to place the blame where it belongs . ON DIRECTV . It is all about being honest and truthful but , that would be bad business I guess . If I am told up front that I may be getting brand new OLDER equipment , I would ask what I am missing out on not getting a new model . I would expect to be told the truth so I can make a decision . More than likely , I will go ahead with scheduling the install . And I have said more than once that if I am scheduled for a new install and am called AFTER the time frame alotted to me to change the install date , BYE BYE ! Call me during the alotted time or , the best thing is to call me the day before to tell me you cannot show at that time and reschedule . THEN I MIGHT accept that and say ok . That way no one misses time from work and you know what to expect on the install . Of course this is a moot point if DIRECTV would tell the truth to the customer in the first place . I wrote all of this to make a simple request to fix what is broken . DIRECTV NEEDS TO BE HONEST UPFRONT ! End of story .