When To Adjust Declination on a Bud Mesh Dish?

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jsattv

Thread Starter
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Jul 4, 2006
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Can't get Tp's 11966 and 12152??
I have been trying to fine tune my 12 Foot Mesh Dish for Galaxy 25 / 97.0W. I have found most of the Tp's on 97.0W with a fair to good signal level, for example Tp 12177 S = 74, Q = 65. But no matter what I do I can't get anything more than a Q of 0 to 18 on 11966, and on 12152 I am seeing 0 to 10 very intermittently. I have adjusted Inclination - see pic #1 to as good as I can.

My question is when do you know you need to look at and adjust Declination - see pic # 2 and pic # 3 showing Both adjustments, and would it help me pull in those 2 Tp's?? Note, for my Latitude 49.9 for Winnipeg, Canada I should be at 6.6 degrees Declination, and my Apex Elevation should be 32.8 degrees. When I put my Inclimoter on the small Bar I read 56 degrees, when I put it on the Big Bar or Polar Axis I read 46.5 degrees. So that should mean my Declination is now 56 - 46.5 = 9.5 degrees, which is way off the calculated 6.62 degrees I am supposed to be at for my location.

But if I try to move the Polar Axis or Inclination any higher: ie. from 46 up towards 50 I lose all signal!! Does this mean I now need to adjust very carefully for Declination re pic # 2 to try and get my 2 missing Tp's especially 12152 which should be booming in as 12177 is?? This is very confusing.

Any advice would be very much appreciated.
 

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gabshere

gabshere

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Aug 20, 2006
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Rison , Arkansas
its still not tracking the arc right
i agree with the above. sounds like your real close
mark your current settings and then try those listed above. hopefully it will track the arc.

good pic satphreak
 
J

jsattv

Thread Starter
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Jul 4, 2006
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Since your lattitude is 49.9 you will need to set the polar axis to 49.9 degrees. When I chequed your declinantion it should be about 7.29 degrees. See Footprints by Dish Size - Latitude Declination Chart - C/Ku-Band Satellite Listing

Here is you photo with the red line to set 49.9 degrees and the green line to 49.9 - 7.29=42.61. This should follow the arc much better. View attachment 21482

Thanks for the advise SatPhreak and Gabshere. The chart I was using was from a 9 page writeup: "C-Band Satellite Installation" re C-band Satellite Installation where it says the Declination angle for my Lattitude 49.92 should be approx 6.60. Its only about 0.70 degrees difference so I guess this may not matter too much.

More Adjustments Needed?
SatPhreak then I would need to adjust BOTH my Inclination (Red Bar) Bolt Nuts and Declination the (Green Bar) Nut. That is if I understand what your saying then I would need to adjust my Inclination - Polar Axis - Big Bar from its current 46.5 up to 49.9 degrees, and then DROP the Declination adjustment from its current 56 degrees all the way down to 42.61 degrees (49.9 - 7.29 = 42.61 degrees). That would mean a 13 degree adjustment on the Declination!! Thats a lot of adjusting on the Declination!!

I seem to be fairly close now, that is on the 4 tp's on the adjacent C Band Sat 96.9W I am seeing S = 75 and Q of 75 to 100% . And as soon as I raise Elevation from its current 46.5 degrees towards 50.0 degrees, I lose all signalling. Or do I have to readjust the East and West placement of the Dish as well? 97.0W is my True South Satellite. If thats whats required I'll do it, guess I could mark the current Nut Locations on the screw shafts with a red felt marker as per Gabsheres' suggestion. Any more comments would be very much appreciated.
 
J

jsattv

Thread Starter
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Jul 4, 2006
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Need Clarification - Very Confusing!!
SatPhreak & Guys in a previous reply I had on 11/29/2007 from VOOMVOOM we were saying the Top Small Bar or Declination should be at 57.2 degrees, and the Big Bar or Polar Mount should be at 50.6 degrees to get a Declination angle of 6.6 degrees (57.2 - 50.6 = 6.6). So then if this is correct I would increase the Big Bar up to say 50.0 degrees, and Raise the Small Bar from 56 up to 57.2 degrees to get my location's proper Declination setting???
 
linuxman

linuxman

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Jul 16, 2006
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North West of St. Louis, MO
To answer the question in the title, the declination needs to be set before you start and with your satellite pointed at the South Pole.

According to this chart and your location of Winnipeg, your main axis should be set to 50.57 degrees and your offset should be at 6.61 using a digital inclinometer or protractor. Giving you a total of 57.18 total.

Once the declination is set properly, you should not have to adjust it again.

Then find the signal on your True South Satellite which is 97W and adjust the total elevation for best signal. Move to both ends of the arc and again adjust elevation for best signal.

From that point on, it is a matter of moving the whole assembly East or West to align the whole arc.
 
linuxman

linuxman

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Jul 16, 2006
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in a previous reply I had on 11/29/2007 from VOOMVOOM we were saying the Top Small Bar or Declination should be at 57.2 degrees, and the Big Bar or Polar Mount should be at 50.6 degrees to get a Declination angle of 6.6 degrees (57.2 - 50.6 = 6.6). So then if this is correct I would increase the Big Bar up to say 50.0 degrees, and Raise the Small Bar from 56 up to 57.2 degrees to get my location's proper Declination setting???
VoomVoom was correct in what he posted. But those setting are only correct when pointed at the South Pole. :)

Then move the dish to the desired satellite with the positioner.
 
turbosat

turbosat

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Dec 26, 2006
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Oneonta,AL
declination angle

The declination thing again, have to find that post I put up a few days back from the sat install manual. It's touchy to set it right. But you have to adjust it with the elevation setting too, increase dec, decrease inclination a similar amount at same time. 12' would see more precisely so naturally it will be harder to get a bigger dish set. The geo-orbit page has this info also , I'll try to find the link for it and post it.
 
J

jsattv

Thread Starter
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Jul 4, 2006
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To answer the question in the title, the declination needs to be set before you start and with your satellite pointed at the South Pole.

According to this chart and your location of Winnipeg, your main axis should be set to 50.57 degrees and your offset should be at 6.61 using a digital inclinometer or protractor. Giving you a total of 57.18 total.

Once the declination is set properly, you should not have to adjust it again.

Then find the signal on your True South Satellite which is 97W and adjust the total elevation for best signal. Move to both ends of the arc and again adjust elevation for best signal.

From that point on, it is a matter of moving the whole assembly East or West to align the whole arc.

Thanks very much linuxman, and there is great info on the Links that you posted also. At least I now know I am not too far away re the required adjustments. Right now I'm moving the Dish with the Actuator and 12 VDC Battery Charger since the 5 wire Actuator I have won't move my Dish with the 4 wire V-Box III connected. Guess I need to replace the Actuator with a 4 wire unit when it gets warmer up here?
 
Anole

Anole

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Sep 22, 2005
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Hope I'm not just causing more confusion, but if I may, I'd like to make a couple of points:
97.0W is my True South Satellite
Okay, let's start there: aimed at 97°.

1) The declination and elevation do interact.
So, when you reset the declination, you'll lose your true south bird.
Just re-adjust the elevation to find it.

2) At the bottom of this page on the Geo-Orbit site, is a chart showing how to get on-target with an eastern and a western bird, after you have dialed-in the true south satellite.
That should get you aligned pretty well to the arc.
If you are absolutely sure your declination is still off, go back to your true south bird and follow step 1 above again.

3) You mentioned a problem interfacing the motor to the Vbox.
I would save this problem 'till last and not let it distract me from getting the BUD on the arc.
Don't know what a five-wire motor is, but it might be possible that using the correct four wires is all it takes.
I'll be interested to learn the solution to this one, too. :)
 
J

jsattv

Thread Starter
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Jul 4, 2006
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Thanks Anole, I checked Declination with my Inclinometer again today on the small Bar: - it is 56.5 Degrees - it should be 57.2, but since it was -25 degrees below zero with a -44 degree wind chill I left it alone for now, its so cold out there you can hardly think straight in that weather. Inclination on the Big Bar or Polar Axis is at 46.5 degrees - I need to raise it up to 50.6 degrees when it gets a bit warmer out there.

My 5 Wire Actuator:
Yes my Dish came with what some people tell me is called an old Optical Control Actuator. From my Uniden UST 9900 instruction manual it's wired as follows:
+ and - 36VDC heavier guage Black and Red Wires,
B 12 VDC Sensor Wire - Orange Wire,
SEN Sensor Return - Brown Wire,
GND Sensor Ground
Thats' 5 wires and the V-Box III can only handle 4 wires ie M1 & M2 and + and - Sensor. Tried a lot of different wiring hookups and nothing works!! There was even a post on this site where I saw re a reference to another Uniden Receiver Manual where it said to completely ignore the B or 12 VDC Sensor Wire and just hook up the other 4 wires to the V-BOX III. But this didn't work either, although I never did properly set up the East and West Limits on the V-Box III, since I know my current Actuator does have built in Limits for East and West when I cycle it with the 12 VDC Battery Charger. When I go to Installer on my Sat Receiver re DiseQC 1.2 commands I can see the V-Box III click in and I have been able to slightly move the Dish, but it immediately stops when I try to cycle it East or West. Any advice on how to get it going would be helpful but as you say I first need to find the Clark Belt Arc with the Mesh Dish first for 97.0W.

Cheap V-BOX III Contacts:
One other thing I'd like to mention is I have never seen such CHEAP SPRING LOADED CONTACTS that are on the back of my V-BOX III. I have twice lost the spring in 2 of the contacts and spent a couple of hours trying to to get the springs back in these extremely poorly manufactured Contacts. Sure would like to know if someone has found a solution or experienced the same problem with their V-Box Contacts?
 
voomvoom

voomvoom

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May 18, 2004
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Lizella, Georgia Republic
My 5 Wire Actuator:
Yes my Dish came with what some people tell me is called an old Optical Control Actuator. From my Uniden UST 9900 instruction manual it's wired as follows:
+ and - 36VDC heavier guage Black and Red Wires,
B 12 VDC Sensor Wire - Orange Wire,
SEN Sensor Return - Brown Wire,
GND Sensor Ground
Thats' 5 wires and the V-Box III can only handle 4 wires ie M1 & M2 and + and - Sensor. Tried a lot of different wiring hookups and nothing works!! There was even a post on this site where I saw re a reference to another Uniden Receiver Manual where it said to completely ignore the B or 12 VDC Sensor Wire and just hook up the other 4 wires to the V-BOX III. But this didn't work either?
I'm probably not right, but my guess would be to use the 2 Sensor wires (orange & brown) and hook them to the V-Box. It probably won't matter which is used for the ground or which is used for the Sensor (pulse)? My thoughts on it, might even work?
 
J

jsattv

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Jul 4, 2006
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Thanks VoomVoom your comments are always very helpful - I may have tried that combination - but its been over a month since I last wired up the V-Box III, so I'll try it again. Just to clarify the B 12 VDC is listed in the Uniden 9900 Manual as B 12 V DC Sensor Power (Orange wire), while the other 2 are listed as: SEN Sensor Return (Brown wire), and GND Sensor Ground (Grey wire).
 
J

jsattv

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Jul 4, 2006
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Declination Bolt - Not Much Thread Left To Adjust

VoomVoom was correct in what he posted. But those setting are only correct when pointed at the South Pole. :)

Then move the dish to the desired satellite with the positioner.

Took some closup pics today of the Declination Adjustment Bolt and there is not much Thread Left to Adjust it upward, I'm at about 56.75 and need to get to 57.2 so not sure there will be enough thread left to go any higher (if I am going in the right direction). Didn't adjust it too much as it was so cold out there.

My question is should I now move up the Inclination Inclination up a bit more since I need to be at 50.6 degrees for inclination. That is current settings are 56.75 - 46.5 = 10.25 Declination angle. My ideal needs to be 57.2 - 50.6 = 6.6 degrees. Also does the placement of the KU and C - LNB's re their approximate 5 and 11 oclock positions (see picture) have any bearing on my Sat Signal Reception? That is would fine tuning their clock position placement help with getting better or stronger Sat Signalling? Any comments would be appreciated.
 

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linuxman

linuxman

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Jul 16, 2006
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North West of St. Louis, MO
My ideal needs to be 57.2 - 50.6 = 6.6 degrees.
Whatever your current elevation is right now on the main axis, set your declination at 6.6 degrees up from that, then go back to your main axis elevation to move it to 50.57 degrees. That will give you a total of 57.2 degrees without your having to adjust the declination again.

Then adjust the main axis elevation only for signal. :)
 
J

jsattv

Thread Starter
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Jul 4, 2006
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Whatever your current elevation is right now on the main axis, set your declination at 6.6 degrees up from that, then go back to your main axis elevation to move it to 50.57 degrees. That will give you a total of 57.2 degrees without your having to adjust the declination again.

Then adjust the main axis elevation only for signal. :)

Linuxman, thanks for your reply, but to clarify are you saying that I should leave my current Elevation BIG Bar Polar Axis setting at 46.5 (it should be 50.6) and then drop my Declination Setting Now at 56.75 down to 51.25?? And then Increase Inclination Back up towards 50.6 to get the best signal? Sorry for not understanding fully. I appreciate the help.
 
linuxman

linuxman

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Jul 16, 2006
3,903
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North West of St. Louis, MO
Yes, leave your current elevation as is right now (46.5) on the main axis.

Put your inclinometer on the back of the dish ring and add 6.6 degrees to the current elevation and move the declination to where it is 6.6 degrees of separation total of 51.25 degrees.

Then put your inclinometer on the main axis and move the main elevation on main axis up to 50.57 degrees which would then give a reading on the back of the ring of 57.18 degrees total.

Think of it this way. The total is the sum of the two parts.

Elevation adjustment plus declination adjustment = total elevation.

Then adjust main elevation axis for signal while pointed at the South Pole, or nearest satellite to it.
 
Hermitman

Hermitman

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Jul 2, 2006
420
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Limestone, Mi
But please remember to have your dish mount and dish pointing due south (toward the south pole) before making any measurements and adjustments. Otherwise the measurements and adjustments will be off and the dish won't track the arc properly.
 
linuxman

linuxman

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jul 16, 2006
3,903
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North West of St. Louis, MO
The is from the Geo-Orbit site that Anole mentioned above:

Stare at it a while. It will begin to make sense with what I have written.

Declination elevation mount adjustment

Don't feel bad, it took a long time for it to finally sink in for me too. :)
 
B

bubby-joe50

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jul 1, 2006
28
0
Way Up North
Cheap V-BOX III Contacts:
One other thing I'd like to mention is I have never seen such CHEAP SPRING LOADED CONTACTS that are on the back of my V-BOX III. I have twice lost the spring in 2 of the contacts and spent a couple of hours trying to to get the springs back in these extremely poorly manufactured Contacts. Sure would like to know if someone has found a solution or experienced the same problem with their V-Box Contacts?[/QUOTE]

Yes I had the same problems with my v-box III. any tension on the wire pops the spring out. I tried the local parts shop but could find nothing to replace it with. But your right the wire clip is a real cheap component. With your wiring problem make sure the 4 of the five are connected inside the motor, and that the 2 sensor wires go to the v-box III, these work the internal counter, 12V not used at v-box end. I've got a von-weise actuator on mine but yours should work similar.
 
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