first time set-up

[Rafaelccs]

Let me quote from the ad


" LNB for Sat 99: DirecTV SL3 Modified for receiving only 99. Fine tuned for receiving only 99 and power efficient." If you don't modify the LNB so it does not receive 101. the 101 signals (even if the signal strength is zero) will screw with the real 101 signals coming from the center LNB.

what does a Diplexer do?

in what frequency does Directv combine 99 w and 101w?

Here's some info so you can understsand the frequency plan:

http://content.abt.com/documents/18494/wb616_manual.pdf

If I find something more ilustrative I will post it.

 

[Rafaelccs]

I already ordered the dual power diplexer;

you'll need 2.

Q: I am not sure why there would be an inline amps on 2 of the six (6) cables; both outlets from the standard Ku lnb 101W seem to have the inline amp.
Could that be because of the low signal for odd tps on 101W or is this something else?

He certainly can't pump up the levels with any kind of amp, but he might think he's compensating for insetion loss....

I should be able to copy his set-up but I might not find the Ka signals without the AIM meter. I guess all the other meters will not even react to KA. Right ?
First i will try to find a KA signal by just using the receiver's sat signal meter.

I stongly recoment use of meters, that AIM seems to cover ka.....$500 dolars more!
?you have to remember and I have posted several times, all the things you buy wont guarantee you get it working, but if there's any slight chance it puts you closer....

 

[vixens]

I made some research and found a store in Mexico that claims they sell the set up; probably the tech guy from Mexico that charged $8,500 bought the goods from them??
I guess the thing works well in Mexico, deeper in fringe who knows?

Anyhow here's the link:

http://www.cp-electronics.com/eng/pr...LNB-KIT&cat=19

They sell the kit for aprox. US$230

I must insist that I am not posting this will work, I personally haven't done any test yet.....
Running tests will always require to waste money in research....

Earlier I went straight to the last page and just read this now !
I guess I'll have to order the kid or open a slimline-3 to see how difficult this modification would be.
Thanks,

 

[vixens]

you'll need 2.



He certainly can't pump up the levels with any kind of amp, but he might think he's compensating for insetion loss....



I stongly recoment use of meters, that AIM seems to cover ka.....$500 dolars more!
?you have to remember and I have posted several times, all the things you buy wont guarantee you get it working, but if there's any slight chance it puts you closer....

1. I already ordered 3 dual power duplexers
2. Could it be something else other than an inline amp ? I don't think so.
3. I am fully aware that there is never any guarantee.


I already have:
* 2- Slimline-3
* 1- Slimline Alaska/Hawaii
* 1- SWM triple LNB plus 21V power inserter (will not need that)
* 1- Zinwell Wide-band 6x8 Multi Switch Ka/Ku (no external power) MS6X8WB-Z
* 2- B Band converters
* 3 - dual power pass diplexer by Perfect Vision (just ordered)
* HR 22 receiver active on 101W

Includes:

• LNB for Sat 99: DirecTV SL3 Modified for receiving only 99. Fine tuned for receiving only 99 and power efficient.
• LNB for Sat 101: Best performing LNB on the Market
• LNB for Sat 103: DirecTV SL3 - Unmodified
• 2 Combiners for (99) & (101) Signals
• 6X8 DirecTV Wideband Multiswitch for connecting up to 8 tuners.
• Patch Cables NOT INCLUDED

It says the LNB for 103 is unmodified. As both cables go straight into the switch I could try a 101/103 set up first.

 

[Rafaelccs]

Here's a more illustrative Frequency Plan so you can understand how they stack and combine,
the information is extracted from MDU manufacturer Sonora Design: http://sonoradesign.com
There's also some more information about MDU from Perfect 10: https://www.perfect-10.tv/MDU/docs/MDUTrainingProgram.pdf
To design MDU you MUST understand well how DirecTV uses the cable spectrum, have knowledge on cable loss in runs based upon insertion loss and frequency attenuation
probably this might be to much information, but at least the frequency plan should give you a rough idea how they extract what frequency from which lnbf and how they combine it....

 

[texasbrit]

As I understand it from my FTA sat friend, the problem with using an unmodified LNB is that the standard LNB set up for 99 will also generate a 101 IF (intermediate frequency) signal even if the signal strength is zero (it might actually not be zero), so in fact the "99" LNB will be delivering both 101 and 103 signals into the combiners as well as 99. The 101 signal from the "99" LNB might not be exactly in phase with the 101 signal from the real 101 LNB and they will tend to cancel each other out. Certainly the S/N ratio of the 101 signals will be screwed up because there will be twice the noise. My guess is that the modification to the LNB for 99 removes the 101 IF signals (and probably the 103 IF signals also) so that the only signals coming out of the "99" LNB are in fact from 99. Then you can combine the 99 and 101 signals before they go to the multiswitch.

 

[Rafaelccs]

I'm sorry you don't see this so easy solution, I guess you have to understand that the Ka-low is down converted to 250 MHz to 750 MHz this is CATV or VHF/UHF so the Diplexer only catches the CATV spectrum 5 MHz to 800 MHz
it filters the uper frequencies just like a band pass filter, the other port will only receive 900 MHz to 2150 MHz.
You must understand very well that 103 W is only present when you send a 22 KHz tone.

Check the zinwell multi switch, it has 4 input ports:

Port 1: 18 VDC & 0 KHz tone. (Only 99 W Hi/Low Ka and 101 W even transponders).
Port 2: 13 VDC & 0 KHz tone. (Only 99 W Hi/Low Ka and 101 W odd transponders).
Port 3: 18 VDC & 22 KHz tone. (Only 103 W Hi & Low ka even transponders).
Port 4: 13 VDC & 22 KHz tone. (Only 103 W Hi & Low Ka odd transponders).

Extracted from Wikipedia:

A diplexer is a passive device that implements frequency domain multiplexing. Two ports (e.g., L and H) are multiplexed onto a third port (e.g., S). The signals on ports L and H occupy disjoint frequency bands. Consequently, the signals on L and H can coexist on port S without interfering with each other.
Typically, the signal on port L will occupy a single low frequency band and the signal on port H will occupy a higher frequency band. In that situation, the diplexer consists of a lowpass filter connecting ports L and S and high pass filter connecting ports H and S. Ideally, all the signal power on port L is transferred to the S port and vice versa. All the signal power on port H is transferred to port S and vice versa. Ideally, the separation of the signals is complete. None of the low band signal is transferred from the S port to the H port. In the real world, some power will be lost, and some signal power will leak to the wrong port.
The diplexer, being a passive device, is reciprocal: the device itself doesn't have a notion of input or output.
The diplexer is a different device than a passive combiner or splitter. The ports of a diplexer are frequency selective; the ports of a combiner are not. There is also a power "loss" difference - a combiner takes all the power delivered to the S port and equally divides it between the A and B ports. A diplexer does not.
A diplexer multiplexes two ports onto one port, but more than two ports may be multiplexed: a three-port to one-port multiplexer is known as a triplexer

 

[vixens]

One other thing that is wrong from my point of view is that those brackets from your picture taken at your friend's set up.....
Don't look like they are well located, offset fed antennas have a optimal focal point as does Prime Focus antennas,
believe it or not an offset fed antenna is the most efficient area of a larger prime focus antenna, therefore you may imagine,
that both might have several focal points and they do, you can aim several satellites from a single dish like these:

Attachment 90359

But not all will take the full surface or gain, but smaller sub sections with lower gain, all easily achieved, when in the footprint like the picture I linked above,
the guy can't be in fringe to get those many satellites with such a small dish.

If you see in detail from your own pictures, you'll see that none of the LNBF's is located in the original antenna's focal point, in other words,
the main Lnbf (101 W) should be resting in it's original bracket, and the other ones should be tilted near it, they could be separated by 3 or 4 inches,
but the pivot has to be in the main lnbf bracket or antenna feed, otherwise he's using a smaller portion of it.
If the feed struts are in the way you must design a mechanism to locate the main Lnbf in the antenna's original focal point.

?If working.....

* The attachment does not open, so I am not sure exactly what you mean.
* I do not know what sat dish the guy is using. He said it's from Mexico. I looks amateur made. Maybe somebody in Mexico has produced some kind of an oval dish with 3 different focus points.
* On the other hand: my 101W signal on the Prodelin 2.4m dish is so weak on the odd transponders that a partial only surface for 101 would not be enough. I am barely locking in with the entire surface. Without the odd transponders the HR receiver will not start to connect at first set-up and further will not update the guide and other info. That one night w/o the weak odd tps, I received error messages all the time.

* If I can believe the signal strength indicated on Satbeams: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?position=259
-- 103W Directv10 with 38.3 dBS should only need a 1.5m dish
-- 103W Directv12 is out of reach
-- 99W Directv11 should also give me 38.3 dBS easy with a 1.5m dish.

For that reason a partial reflection from the 2.4m dish could be enough. And I am not even 100% sure if his dish is 2.4 or maybe even a little larger. I did not pay attention to that.
If you watch the picture of the lnbs from the front and behind both Lnbs are really twisted to the inside but not really pointed to the center of the dish. That would indicate a partial reflection only.


Also, I would imagine that on both Ku LNBs the top inside lnb would be the one connecting (not the lowest). That would give the perfect arch.

 

[Rafaelccs]

Sorry the link was just illustrative:



Also you MUST use only Dtv 32 plus (Aspen Eagle) for the Ku, forget the Alaska Hawaii LNBf

 

[vixens]

As I understand it from my FTA sat friend, the problem with using an unmodified LNB is that the standard LNB set up for 99 will also generate a 101 IF (intermediate frequency) signal even if the signal strength is zero (it might actually not be zero), so in fact the "99" LNB will be delivering both 101 and 103 signals into the combiners as well as 99. The 101 signal from the "99" LNB might not be exactly in phase with the 101 signal from the real 101 LNB and they will tend to cancel each other out. Certainly the S/N ratio of the 101 signals will be screwed up because there will be twice the noise. My guess is that the modification to the LNB for 99 removes the 101 IF signals (and probably the 103 IF signals also) so that the only signals coming out of the "99" LNB are in fact from 99. Then you can combine the 99 and 101 signals before they go to the multiswitch.

That would explain that the guy from Mexico states that the SL3 for 99W is modified (so there is no non-signal/noise coming from the 101/103 portion of that lnb). However, the SL3 for 103W is not modified, so the Mexican seller states. Wouldn't there also be a transfer of unnecessary and unwanted frequency/noise from the (unwanted) 99/101 portion of the 103 lnb ?

I guess Cesar could be right. there is a good chance that these frequencies are filtered out by the 2-frequenzy switch/combiner and also by the 6x8 input for different frequencies.

 

[vixens]

Sorry the link was just illustrative:



Also you MUST use only Dtv 32 plus (Aspen Eagle) for the Ku, forget the Alaska Hawaii LNBf

I am aware of that. The Alaska/Hawaii triple LNB is designed for off-set dishes of 1.2 m. I had very little hope that it would work with a 2.4m dish.

 

[vixens]

If I can believe the signal strength indicated on Satbeams: http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?position=259
-- 103W Directv10 with 38.3 dBS should only need a 1.5m dish
-- 103W Directv12 is out of reach
-- 99W Directv11 should also give me 38.3 dBS easy with a 1.5m dish.

A 2.4 meter dish has about 4 times more surface than a 1.5m dish. Given that, and also assuming that Satbeams is somewhere correct with its dBS info, only a 1/4 reflection from a 2.4 meter dish would be enough to lock KA signals. Fieldwork will tell.

The guys outer/Ka lnbs are surely pointer in a very odd way.

However, if you imagine:
* the 101W satellite is located above the 101 lnb. Its pointing straight at the center of the dish.
* The 103 satellite, approx. located above the 99 lnb (left in the pic) is higher up in the sky. Therefore the 103 lnb (right in the pic) has to point more down and over the middle. A higher satellite reflects further down.
* The 99 satellite is located above the 103 lnb but lower than the other 2 sats. Therefore the 99 Lnb points higher and over the dishes center line. A lower satellite reflects in a smaller angle.

 

[vixens]

For all of you who had --starting in May-- serious doubts or thought that this was a hoax:

Here is the picture and online sales description:


Specially designed and made for CP Electronics, this set allows you to use a 2.4m (8 ft) antenna with three separate LNB's for receiving DirecTV satellites 99, 101, 103.

Thank you Rafael; you are the best !

Now I have good hope again that I can accomplish this all on my own.

 

[texasbrit]

Rafaelccs - good point about the diplexers, but I suspect they might not be efficient enough to stop enough of the 101 signal passing through the "99" leg to prevent interference with the "101" leg. Otherwise there would be no need to modify the "99" LNB as the web site states.

 

[raoul5788]

For all of you who had --starting in May-- serious doubts or thought that this was a hoax:

Here is the picture and online sales description:

View attachment 90386
Specially designed and made for CP Electronics, this set allows you to use a 2.4m (8 ft) antenna with three separate LNB's for receiving DirecTV satellites 99, 101, 103.

Thank you Rafael; you are the best !

Now I have good hope again that I can accomplish this all on my own.

I never thought it was a hoax, I doubted you would be able to get it up and running with the equipment you were using.

 

[Rafaelccs]

Rafaelccs - good point about the diplexers, but I suspect they might not be efficient enough to stop enough of the 101 signal passing through the "99" leg to prevent interference with the "101" leg. Otherwise there would be no need to modify the "99" LNB as the web site states.

that's my point, remember they're selling the whole kit for arround US$230...so they need to justify the price.
adding all the components price I think the real price is arround $100

worst case scenario if they do modify inside the lnbf all that needs to be done is interrupt current flow that feeds the middle lnbf for 101 or interrupt the conection before they combine them, an average electronic guy can follow the path, also even if you want more peace of mind you can interrupt continuity to the 103 portion, but I state that 103 is only activated when the receiver sends a tone so If the tone isn't send why would 103 bother?

The scenario here is that you are extracting certain information needed from the sl3 which happens to also have a built in 4 port switch, so you are fixing (condemning) the port to extract what you need and then you are recombing in the second multiswitch so that then the receiver can finally work like if you where in the footprint, where you have no need for these kind of craziness.....

I have to point out that I beleive all this discution only educates how the thing could work, I have to see if Vixen locks any Ka signal, regardless of diplexers, kit, 3 lnbf, the good or not good enough signal he gets from Ku 101.....

 

[Rafaelccs]

Thank you guys I am really enjoying this thread as I use to do long time ago at dbsforums in latin america and fringe boards......too bad there is no such thing anymore like a board for fringe signals, there we enjoyed long extended friendly discussion, with very knowledable D. Collins the former moderator was Raoul from Puerto Rico.....

?Regards......

 

[texasbrit]

that's my point, remember they're selling the whole kit for arround US$230...so they need to justify the price.
adding all the components price I think the real price is arround $100

worst case scenario if they do modify inside the lnbf all that needs to be done is interrupt current flow that feeds the middle lnbf for 101 or interrupt the conection before they combine them, an average electronic guy can follow the path, also even if you want more peace of mind you can interrupt continuity to the 103 portion, but I state that 103 is only activated when the receiver sends a tone so If the tone isn't send why would 103 bother?

The scenario here is that you are extracting certain information needed from the sl3 which happens to also have a built in 4 port switch, so you are fixing (condemning) the port to extract what you need and then you are recombing in the second multiswitch so that then the receiver can finally work like if you where in the footprint, where you have no need for these kind of craziness.....

I have to point out that I beleive all this discution only educates how the thing could work, I have to see if Vixen locks any Ka signal, regardless of diplexers, kit, 3 lnbf, the good or not good enough signal he gets from Ku 101.....

yes, I agree with you, it's only the 101 from the "99" LNB which is the potential problem and I expect you are correct, the modification probably consists of breaking the power track for the 101 LNB (and maybe the 103 LNB) on the LNB circuit board. Not a major issue I would have thought for an electrical engineer. But getting the LNB already modified might be worth it for piece of mind.

As you say, he might not get a good enough signal on Ka even with the special equipment but it's the only way I think it MIGHT work.

 

[StraightEdge]

Would that new LNB work on ANY 2.4 meter offset dish?

 

[Rafaelccs]

There's no new lnb, just old ones, I guess you're talking about the mexican site one?